What is the REAL cost.....

M

MCP

Well-Known Member
Hello all!

As the title states, what is FSA's "real" cost?

Actually, and more realisitcally, what is about the "average" cost to complete training and possibly get hired at FSA?

I really don't want this to turn into some arguement, this school vs that school, or anything at all along those lines, I am just looking for information. I have always heard good things about FSA but have never really known what to expect cost wise. I noticed on their website there are a few prices but I was actually looking for a more "definitive" amount from a few current as well as past students. I would rather do this first before calling FSA in order to get some real world info from paying costumers "walking the walk".

I am currently researching flight schools for a possible start date of Sept (or thereabouts) next year. I know the prices can change in that time frame and I am not looking for any guesses of what FSA *might* cost then. I just want to know about roundabout costs now in order to get a better idea.

Thanks for your time!
 
Asking here is a good idea, but calling them is a better one....Yes, when they quote you, they'll give you a minimum time...don't mess around price...I'd say add 15% to that and that's what you'll end up paying.......the cost varies so much from one student to another that it becomes hard to figure out how much you're going to spend......Some people came out ahead, and some wayyyy behind......FlightSafety does their best to be hones and not pull the wool over your eyes...when you visit you'll see that. On top of the honesty, they'll have you talk to the ladies that take care of financial aid while you're taking the tour...just so that you can figure out how to pay for all of it..........good luck
 
If you study and apply yourself, you can expect to stay close to the origional estimate. I ran about 5% over.
 
oh ya, and the people giving you the tour are most likely current students...so they'll probably have some good insight....like I said...very honest environment there...
 
Thx for the comments!

As stated before, I'm still in the "search phase" and FSA has always been high on my list. Unfortunately, it is also high on the cost list. However, "you get what you pay for" usually applies in "most" instances. FSA has always had a good reputation and I have heard some very good things about their program.

I have family that lives in Vero so I may be able to stop in their next summer, or earlier.

Feel free to continue to post comments/opinions. Any and all information is good information.

Thx again for your time, it is much appreciated!
 
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Unfortunately, it is also high on the cost list

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I understand your concerns. I was going through the same dilema not too long ago. I finished up there a few months ago,paid just under the quoted price. What you have to consider when you are trying to choose a flight school, is not only what it will cost me, but what options will it give me when I finish? I calculated many different scenarios, and FSI only came out slightly more than someone who would finish at an FBO. What they won't tell you at the FBO is that there is really no set syllabus, where at FSI every lesson is specifically layed out in a way that progresses, with minimal chance of repeat. As long as come prepared for your lesson, you will continue to progress forward, not just jump in a plane at the FBO and go and see "what you want to work on today."
Because of this I believe FSI is an excellent and very efficient place to learn. The options that FSI gives you as a graduate is priceless. (their business jet direct program, their airline direct track programs, instructing there with full benefits..) I could tell you all of them here, but please don't take my word, just go and visit there, as well as wherever else you are thinking about attending. Then you should have a better idea of where you can go when you finish, and what options you will have. Good luck!
 
"What they won't tell you at the FBO is that there is really no set syllabus"

You can make FBO training just as organized and efficient as you like. It depends on you and your CFI. I'm not even an FBO, just a guy with a CFI, an airplane, and a sim. Yet, even I use a syllabus.

Some smaller flight schools and CFI's aren't up to the task of an accelerated program. Others are. You gotta shop around and do some research.

"The options that FSI gives you as a graduate is priceless"

If you're in such a hurry that you feel the need to be "placed" after your "program", by all means, seek out a big academy. Smaller schools just give you the training and the tools to go out into the world and make your own way. Believe it or not, that's how most people do it.
 
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You can make FBO training just as organized and efficient as you like.

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Yeah, like "green" pre-privates know what they should be getting in training or how it should be organized. This is where the mom and pop FBO's promise this great training, not deliver, and then blame the extra flights and ground time on the students proficiency or lack there of. It is not the students resposibility to prepare/organize their syllabus. That is a "service" that they are paying the school to provide...

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not even an FBO, just a guy with a CFI, an airplane, and a sim. Yet, even I use a syllabus.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhhh, the truth comes out... hate losing students to good schools like FSA and Riddle huh?
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Let me ask you this... Do they enforce the use of checklists at UPS? Do they enforce the use of procedures at UPS? How about systems knowledge? How about CRM?

I will bet that your answer will be a definite yes.... You know as well as I that 99.9% of mom and pop schools not only do not enforce these things but, do not teach the importance of them at all.

Flight Safety goes above and beyond the PTS by engraining these things into the student from day one. This forms a solid foundation, creating a safe, proficient pilot. But hey, I'll bet you do too with your one airplane and sim.

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Some smaller flight schools and CFI's aren't up to the task of an accelerated program.

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Be honest.... Smaller flight schools and part time CFI's simply do not have the knowledge or the resources that Flight Safety has to offer these kinds of programs...


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Smaller schools just give you the training and the tools to go out into the world and make your own way.

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Yeah....piss poor training (at most). I guess Flight Safety and Riddle etc. just cash your check and send you packing, no training and no tools.....

The only tools I have seen given to a student at a small mom and pop school are Snap-On. Then the student is pointed to the plane to start the 100 hour (true statement BTW, sad but true)....

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Believe it or not, that's how most people do it.

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No...."most" mom and pop FBO's breed weekend warriors with bad piloting habits that turn Cessnas into lawn darts.
 
Oh my my....

Well. I'll not bother to counter as everyone knows where I'm coming from. I'll say this, if I had the druthers, I think I could turn out a product that's superior to an FSA grad between my Luscombe, my 152 aerobat, and my two FAA approved flight sims. No, they wouldn't have the "benefit" of FSA "placement" as they would get kicked out into the real would and fend for themselves once they got their time in.

They wouldn't get hired at ASA with 300 hours, either. And that's just fine by me. They would have the chance to prove themselves by building their experience over time rather than be placed at an airline because their school has a deal with a regional.

It's all hypothetical, though, as I'd rather do community service than teach. Once I master the Luscombe, though, I've been thinking about doing some tailwheel training. Maybe some FSI guys would like to come and see what flyings all about. No, it has nothing to do with programming an FMC at 300 hours, but it has a LOT to do with being a good stick. Any idoit can run a checklist, don't you think ILS?

ILS, we obviously have a huge disagreement about what it takes to be a good airline pilot. I like to see the self made success, not the guy who got "placed". I like to see the guy who has proven himself in a wide variety of aircraft and experiences. 135 IFR night freight guys are the best.

To this day, in all my years of experience, I've never met anyone who went to FSA. Now, more than ever, I'm looking forward to meeting some..........
 
Re: Oh my my....

[ QUOTE ]
Well. I'll not bother to counter as everyone knows where I'm coming from. I'll say this, if I had the druthers, I think I could turn out a product that's superior to an FSA grad between my Luscombe, my 152 aerobat, and my two FAA approved flight sims. No, they wouldn't have the "benefit" of FSA "placement" as they would get kicked out into the real would and fend for themselves once they got their time in.

They wouldn't get hired at ASA with 300 hours, either. And that's just fine by me. They would have the chance to prove themselves by building their experience over time rather than be placed at an airline because their school has a deal with a regional.

It's all hypothetical, though, as I'd rather do community service than teach. Once I master the Luscombe, though, I've been thinking about doing some tailwheel training. Maybe some FSI guys would like to come and see what flyings all about. No, it has nothing to do with programming an FMC at 300 hours, but it has a LOT to do with being a good stick. Any idoit can run a checklist, don't you think ILS?

ILS, we obviously have a huge disagreement about what it takes to be a good airline pilot. I like to see the self made success, not the guy who got "placed". I like to see the guy who has proven himself in a wide variety of aircraft and experiences. 135 IFR night freight guys are the best.

To this day, in all my years of experience, I've never met anyone who went to FSA. Now, more than ever, I'm looking forward to meeting some..........

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I couldn't fly in your 152, UPS, I'm 6'4" and 220 pounds. You'd have to ride in my lap and then I would have to charge YOU!
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I have a few hours in a Citabria with an upgraded engine. That was FUN!! Certainly a LOT different being in a taildragger.
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Re: Oh my my....

Huh... I normally stay out of the battle zone forums but seeing as I am sitting in a hotel with NOTHING to do until my 6 am sim session here I am. Don, I am impressed. I don't always agree with you but that was a very rational response to one of the most senseless posts I have ever seen. There are two FSA guys in my class right, and fortunatly neither one of them has the attitude displayed here. I'm a product of both the FBO and the big flight school system. Completly different ways of training but both very effective. You know... thinking about it, I learned WAY more "airline" stuff from my FBO instructor (who was a retired US Airways pilot) then I did from my Flight School instructor. Sure I learned "CRM" in the classroom enviroment at the fligth school but is it really that useful? Can't say it is. When you actually get to the airline they give you all the procedures and call outs that you need and that, coupled with good flying judgment (which I learned at the little FBO I trained at) give you the that is needed. Checklists? They were forced on me from day one of my training at the FBO I went to. Is that unusual? I don't think so. Looking at the folks in my class I see a true cross section of pilot training. We have a few Riddle/Pan Am/FSA guys. We have a few Gulfstream (really nice people but.... GRRRR) and then we have a few FBO trained, instructed/flew frieght in a 206 type people. We are all here, and so far everybody is doing just fine. Moral of the story, sure there are FBOs out there that don't teach good procedures, just as there are a few academies out there that don't turn out a very good product. But for the most part it doesn't matter where or how you got your training.

Rant over.
 
Re: Oh my my....

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No, they wouldn't have the "benefit" of FSA "placement" as they would get kicked out into the real would and fend for themselves once they got their time in.


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The percentage of people that choose to use the FSA connections is very small (ie. ASA direct track). FSA grads do it the same way your small FBO guys do it once they have completed their CFI ratings. They instruct, fly freight, mail, whatever.... So enough with your "FBO" real world stuff. In fact, Flight Safety instructors get a hell of a lot more useful and much need instructing experience than the FBO guys (all instrument training in a twin for starters).

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They wouldn't get hired at ASA with 300 hours, either. And that's just fine by me. They would have the chance to prove themselves by building their experience over time rather than be placed at an airline because their school has a deal with a regional.

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Yes, I know this one makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. I CAN RESPECT THAT..... However, I think this is where you and I disagree the most. I instruct and I have flown with many 1000-2000 hour CFI's from the FBO world. Some are good pilots and some I would't board the plane if they were in the cage. I have also seen and flown with some of the FSA direct track pilots, and hands down they are far better pilots in my opinion. No, they did not teach the same thing over and over again to hit the mins, or have to grab the controls on a crappy landing but, they have been through a structured initial training course (PPL through CME or MEI) followed by a very structured airline prep course focusing on instruments and turbine aircraft (ground and level D sim).

Now, if a guy went and flew freight or mail, especially at night, then I would say that they have the "real world" experience you speak of. Yes, they would be the best candidate in indoc versus the 1200 hour I got dizzy doing turns around a point guy and the 300-500 hour direct track. I will still take the direct track FSA guy all day long over the FBO CFI.

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Maybe some FSI guys would like to come and see what flyings all about.

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I am un-familiar with your A/C. However, I too have experience in alot of other A/C. I have had the pleasure of flying many different twins, a King Air, a tail wheel, and I frequently fly an amphib with my "UPS" friend. So you see, even us academy guys have the balls to step out of the Piper like your FBO friends.

BTW.......this is the "MD-11 UPS" friend of mine who instructed to build his time, and flew part time in a Lear before getting hired at UPS. His advice was to skip instructing and do the direct track at 300 hours. He "openly" admitted that he didn't learn any more instructing between 300 hours and 1200 hours when he finished instructing that he didn't already know at 300.


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Any idoit can run a checklist, don't you think ILS?

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You would be surprised... If you talk to the SIM instructors at the regionals, they will tell you that the people that have the hardest time with checklists and procedures come out of the FBO/61 environment. True statment from ASA, and a Horizon instructor I know.

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ILS, we obviously have a huge disagreement about what it takes to be a good airline pilot.

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No, I know what it takes....I think you have a hard on for people that didn't have to pay their "dues" like you. Sorry to be so blunt, but you are not the only one in the industry at the majors. All all of the guys I talk with who instructed for 4000+ hours say that if they had the opportunity to attend a school like FSA and do the direct track, they would have been there in a second. Most of them have trained with Flight Safety at some point and know the quality of training. These are all guys now flying for UPS, Alaska, Southwest, Fed-Ex, and American that I know. I have had discussions with most of them about you and they all say the same thing, had he had the opportunity he would have taken it too....

So here it is.....I am hell bent on helping green pre-privates and other students from making costly mistakes at crappy flight schools and you are hell bent on steering them away from direct track programs. The difference between you and me is this.... I have experience training and flying at BOTH FBO style schools and schools like Flight Safety who happens to have the word "academy" at the end of it. I have first hand knowledge and experience with the direct track program and you do not. If the program did not turn out damn good pilots that can pass the oral, written, and SIM ride then it would not be accepted by ASA, Eagle, and Express Jet...


***DISCLAIMER***

For those of you who do not know....I have a real problem with schools that take the students money, give piss poor training in return, and possibly crush their hopes of becoming an airline pilot after the funds are gone and the training incomplete.

It just so happens that MOST of the schools doing this are mom and pop FBO type schools and a few lame academy schools (Pan-Am and Westwind).

I SUPPORT good qaulity schools like FSA, Riddle, and UND that have the students best intrest in mind...

ILS
 
Re: Oh my my....

"The difference between you and me is this.... I have experience training and flying at BOTH FBO style schools and schools like Flight Safety who happens to have the word "academy" at the end of it. I have first hand knowledge and experience with the direct track program and you do not"

I'd love to bow to your self-proclaimed superiority, but I just can't....

Nope, and I thank God every morning I won't have to fly with a 300 hour F/O after I upgrade in a couple of months. I don't need to experience ultra low time F/O's in jets to understand it's a bad idea. I'm sincerely happy that most FSA grads don't do direct track and get some real life experience before moving up to the airlines. Thanks for pointing that out as I didn't realize that was the case.

"I have a real problem with schools that take the students money, give piss poor training in return"..."It just so happens that MOST of the schools doing this are mom and pop FBO type schools"

I think that's an outrageously inaccurate and irresponsible statement.

I can't give you hard stats, but would you disagree that the vast majority of civillian trained pilots at the majors come from these shoddy little FBO's you speak of? I say that simply because it's very rare that I meet someone at a major who came up the academy route. Most came up through smaller schools and earned their seats from years of experience on the streets, not from being placed because they did a program.

"If you talk to the SIM instructors at the regionals, they will tell you that the people that have the hardest time with checklists and procedures come out of the FBO/61 environment"

Don't know any sim instructors but I know a very recently ex-Mesa checkairman who would roll his eyes every time I asked him about flying with low time MAPDer's. Mesa, now there is a minimum standards operation. I'm sure FSA 300 hour guys are much better....
 
Re: Oh my my....

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I instruct and I have flown with many 1000-2000 hour CFI's from the FBO world. Some are good pilots and some I would't board the plane if they were in the cage.


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You say some are good and some are terrible?
But they were all from FBOs?
How can that be since ALL FBOs are the same?

Just as there is variation in quality among pilots from different FBOs there is variation among the quality of training you get from different FBOs.

Unless you have personally toured 100 or so FBOs around the country, to get a good cross section of the best and the worst, and compared their quality of training how do you know that your sweeping judgement of FBOs is accurate?

If they were ALL bad then wouldn't all of the pilots trained at FBOs be bad- or at least all the same?

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I have also seen and flown with some of the FSA direct track pilots, and hands down they are far better pilots in my opinion. No, they did not teach the same thing over and over again to hit the mins, or have to grab the controls on a crappy landing but, they have been through a structured initial training course (PPL through CME or MEI) followed by a very structured airline prep course focusing on instruments and turbine aircraft (ground and level D sim).

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I wonder if the reason you think the FSA guys are better is actually due to what they learned in the additonal training they recieved in that "Airline Prep turbine course"- which FBO pilots have of course not been through .

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You would be surprised... If you talk to the SIM instructors at the regionals, they will tell you that the people that have the hardest time with checklists and procedures come out of the FBO/61 environment. True statment from ASA, and a Horizon instructor I know.
ILS

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Here's the thing. In an FBO environment you have to act like you want to learn and take some responsibility and initiative to be a good pilot and choose to use the checklist (which FBO instructors DO train you to do).
I've made my own checklist and have the pages clipped into one of those kneeboards with a Jepp binder on it.

I use checklists constantly because that is what a pilot should do.
When I flew with the chief instructor for a "pre-checkride" she said she was impressed with my use of checklists.
And I'm the product of an FBO, isn't that amazing?

Whether or not I use checklists has nothing to do with the fact that I trained at an FBO- you either choose to use them or you don't.
There are lots of things a pilot chooses to do in the interest of safety, if he is a good pilot. He has to take the initiative and do it- and make a habit out of it, regardless of what school he went to.

If someone needs to go to FSA in order to have someone force them to use checklists because they aren't motivated or self-disciplined enough to do it themselves- then they should go, but you are severely overgeneralizing to say that FBOs turn out sub-par pilots.

I have observed that the quality of instruction at an FBO is determined by the quality of instructor- and I have had good ones... at a Cessna Pilot Training Center and also at a mom & pop school.

Because of your radical generalizing about FBOs I'm sure you won't be at all surprised by my response.

I wont even comment on the rude tone you took with the UPS pilot because I'm not here to get into a drawn out argument...

As he said, you should be terrified to fly on major airlines because most of those guys are the product of FBOs!


ster·e·o·type ( P ) Pronunciation Key (str--tp, stîr-)
n.
A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.


(I'm certainly not posting in this thread to fight).
 
Re: Oh my my....

"ster·e·o·type"

His argument is going to be I stereotype the 300 hour jet F/O as he stereotypes FBO flight training.

It boils down to opinion. FSA, MAPD, and a few others think they can put out good jet F/O's in 300 hours. My opinion is said pilots will not bring to the operation an adaquate level of knowledge. Yeah, they will pass company training and meet the FAA min standard. But they seriously lack real world experience to do the job well. If anyone doubts this, post a question about it at flightinfo, a site full of opinionated professional pilots. See how far you get. Would be fun to watch.
 
Re: Oh my my....

Maybe I can put a slightly different slant on this discussion.
I know we are obviously talking about the American System, but over here in the sunny United Kingdom things are very different!!!!

The airline which I currently work for regularly hires very low time hour pilots.
If you think 300 hours is low, try 150 - 200 hours over here!

Our company uses Dash 8 Q400's and BAe 146's and many of these new hire pilots find themselves flying these machines very soon after their instrument rating tests!
In fact some of our youngest Turboprop Captains are only 25 years old!

The way the system works is you go to a school like Oxford etc... over here in the UK for about a year and 6 months, you do all your 'ATP' exams first, then hour build up to a minimum of 150 hours, do your commercial check ride, Instrument check ride and then its up to you to find a job. There are no links with the regional’s at our schools, and most guys are getting hired at the moment to, straight after flight school!

This post is mearly intended for information purposes, to tell of how different things are over here!
 
Re: Oh my my....

"If you think 300 hours is low, try 150 - 200 hours over here!"

It's hard to believe...

I don't like ab initio because it takes away the seasoning process and learning experience gained by working your way up over time. Plus, it's easy to target young wannbes with "be an airline jet pilot in 300 hours" marketing and then put them 100K into debt to work at jobs that pay 20K a year.
 
Re: Oh my my....

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You say some are good and some are terrible?
But they were all from FBOs?
How can that be since ALL FBOs are the same?


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Actually, the few that I have flown with that were decent were from Riddle and UND and are now instructing at an FBO for whatever reason. Yes, I have only done checkouts and trained at 10 or so FBO's in 5 states but.... what I see is usually pretty consistant. Maybe I just happen to fly out of 10 or so bad apples, maybe not. I never said ALL were terrible, just most. Then again, since attending Flight Safety, my standards of quality training have gone up tremendously. When I see FBO schools charging $50 an hour for instruction in a bucket, it bothers me...

There is one thing for certain.....you will not get anywhere near the structured training you get at FSA, Riddle, and UND at 99.9% of FBO schools. If you know of one then by all means PM me there website link so I can do some homework.


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I wonder if the reason you think the FSA guys are better is actually due to what they learned in the additonal training they recieved in that "Airline Prep turbine course"- which FBO pilots have of course not been through .

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No, but I would be willing to put a FSA, Riddle, or UND grad up against an FBO student all day long in an oral and flight test at the completion of their CIME ratings. Are there some good self disciplined FBO students out there that had a good mentor? Yes, I am sure there are but the pass rates among FSA, Riddle, And UND are MUCH higher.

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Here's the thing. In an FBO environment you have to act like you want to learn and take some responsibility and initiative to be a good pilot and choose to use the checklist (which FBO instructors DO train you to do).

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I agree.... The problem I have with mom and pop FBO's is the lack of SOP, syllabus, "good" checklists, flight procedures, and of course proper knowledge and guidance which all flight students need. Like I said, you show me an FBO school that is as anal about all of those things as Flight Safety and I will give them props. Heck, I'll even advertise for them because they are doing right by the student and that is what I care about.

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I use checklists constantly because that is what a pilot should do.
When I flew with the chief instructor for a "pre-checkride" she said she was impressed with my use of checklists.
And I'm the product of an FBO, isn't that amazing?


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Thats great.... it's good to hear. EVERY FBO school I have checked out at with an instructor failed to follow checklist procedure. Two of the schools wanted copies of my Seminole checklist from FSA when they saw it because their own school didn't have one worth a damn.

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If someone needs to go to FSA in order to have someone force them to use checklists because they aren't motivated or self-disciplined enough to do it themselves- then they should go

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It is not a matter of going to FSA and being "forced" to use the checklists and procedures. At Flight Safety it is MANDATORY they be used for the safety of flight. The students are educated from day one on the importance of it. "Most" small FBO schools do not even have decent checklists to use and they are often not enforced as they should be.

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I have observed that the quality of instruction at an FBO is determined by the quality of instructor- and I have had good ones...

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you are correct and you have been fortunate. You should advertise your school and give them credit because there are many other FBO/61 students out there who are being charged FSA/Riddle prices and are not getting good instruction.

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Because of your radical generalizing about FBOs I'm sure you won't be at all surprised by my response.



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I would'nt call it radical. I speak from experience with these small FBO schools and from other friends experiences with such schools.

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I wont even comment on the rude tone you took with the UPS pilot because I'm not here to get into a drawn out argument...


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I am just simply tired of his one sided, old school mentality and his constant attempts to discredit the flight school that has the best name in the industry. As far as his opinion on 300 hour jet pilots, well.... it is his opinion and I guess he is entitled to it. We have already discussed the 300 hour pilot in Europe, the states, the military and so on.

I have agreed with DE727 on occasion but, I disagree with his opinion on instructing until mins are met VS the 300 hour FSA direct track candidate and who is a better pilot to fly the CRJ at entry level.

His "real world" experience in my opinion is limited to 135 charter/ freight etc. Not instructing...

Thanks for chiming in though...

ILS
 
Re: Oh my my....

In my experience, after the first couple of years beyond getting their ratings it makes practically no difference where a pilot did his training. The guys that really want to do well and work hard are doing a good job whether they had "top-notch" academy training, or "crappy FBO" training. And the guys that are not as motivated are not doing near as well, no matter where they trained.

Pilots learn more during the first few years of real world flying then they did during initial flight training, and the guys that want to do well can easily (I say again: easily) overcome any perceived disadvantage in quality of initial training.

Remember that "license to learn" speech everyone got when they received their PPL? Well, it's true for all the ratings just the same, because real-world flying involves using the basic knowledge learned to that point and putting it into use. Ask any pro pilot and they'll tell you that experience means ten times as much as where someone got their ratings. Period. End of story.

The rest of it is just ego-stroking, so if it makes anyone feel better, stroke away!
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Re: Oh my my....

"There is one thing for certain.....you will not get anywhere near the structured training you get at FSA, Riddle, and UND at 99.9% of FBO schools"

Agreed. Not everyone needs such structure, though. Many can do just fine by reading the book and following a simple syllabus. Beyond that, some don't need more structure. Those that do may find themselves bitching and moaning that smaller schools are inferior. They aren't, it's simply a different way of learning. Even UPS has gotten away from formal ground schools on some fleets. The 757 program is all computer based training. Only a couple days with a G/S instructor.

"I am just simply tired of his one sided, old school mentality"

I take that as a compliment. Old school has worked for more guys over the years than all the academies combined.

"and his constant attempts to discredit the flight school that has the best name in the industry."

Hummm...discredit....I don't know. There are some things I disagree with but all in all, outside the direct entry issue, I don't mean to discredit FSA. But since you mentioned it, what do you think makes FSA better than DCA or CAPT? Or even ATP? Some think ATP has the best name in the industry and you can't argue with their placement record at X-jet.

I don't mean to discredit FSA, I mean to discredit ab inito, no matter what academy it comes from.
 
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