What Is Going On?

FlyChicaga said:
What is with all the posts arguing about flight training, regional airlines, and hiring requirements? I see people getting at each others throats about these things, which is exactly the opposite of what should be happening. What happened to the brotherhood of aviators? Different age, I guess.

What I think is most amusing is when one pilot bashes another for their choice of regional or flight school, when both pilots hope to work for the same major airline someday. They'll likely share a cockpit for eight hours crossing the pond to Europe a few years from now. Will any of this matter then? It is like two students from competing high schools fighting about which is better, when they both have applied to the same college.

I could care less about a pilot's background, just as long as they do a good job in the cockpit and are a good person to be 18 inches away from for four days. If they have 500 hours or 5000 hours, went to a small FBO or an ATP-type academy, or *gasp* went to a competing university, I just want them to be an effective crewmember, have a good attitude, and have something interesting to talk about in the cockpit or over dinner. This job does not define who you are, it is only a means of affording the things you enjoy.

Funny, I'm listening to Bob Marley and the Wallers sing "One Love" at the moment on the ol' iPod. Go figure.
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Thank you so much for posting that. I've been feeling the same way for a while.
 
What would help is if now, during a hiring spree, the newhires would only flock to QUALITY airlines. That would send a strong message to the lesser-quality airlines that they need to improve what they offer.

Some folks knock what those of us with experience in the regionals have to offer, but please understand that we're simply trying to fix what needs to be fixed. I didn't apply to three particular regionals when I was a CFI because friends employed at those companies told me not to. Sure, I could have been hired somewhere 2 months before MAG picked me up, and my entire life would be different. I had that advantage, unlike many newbies. We're just trying to help you make the best decision possible, based upon what we've experienced. We've seen the light, and it wasn't necessarily good.
 
Here's my concern guys, as a teacher and educator in this industry. I think that THIS is the problem, personally, and I think we should all be worried about this one.

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This is obviously old hat, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get flamed for this one, but I've gotta say something. I'm sure somebody will accuse me of being bitter (even though I quite enjoy my job), and then somebody else will say that I'm not gettin' up with the get down with modern flight training these days (even though I was just flight instructing for 9 months at an FBO with 3 G1000 aircraft), but I but I think I need to say a few things anyways.

Is anybody else worried for the group of pilots that we're raising these days? We've got programs that are selling a dream (and loads of hype), packaged in an easy to use program that'll only cost you $XX,000. Zero to hero in 6 months, flying jets with anywhere from 250 to 600 hours. Maybe I'm old school, or maybe I'm just flying slant alpha freighters around, but I feel like the maturation process that used to accompany pilots is gone. Or worse yet, it's moved into the realm of a jet cockpit.

I'm worried that kids these days don't care about flying airplanes, they want to fly jets and nothing but. They have no interest in tail draggers, warbirds, floats, tundra tires, stick and rudder skills, NDB approaches (or heck even VOR approaches sometimes), maturing as a pilot, flying crappy equipment in horrible weather or finding out how great it feels to solo somebody as a primary instructor. Now to me, all of that is a damned shame. We've got guys that are so goal oriented, interested in flying nothing more than RJ's and then, if they get lucky, a 737 one day at a mainline carrier.

Now maybe I'm not normal in this reguard, but I'm not really looking forward to getting my first jet job right now. I enjoy flying airplanes...you know...without an autopilot, FMS or flight director. Now don't get me wrong, those seem like cool toys. In fact I'm probably a lot more geeky than most people (I'm sitting here typing this on a PC that I built, while my iBook is playing some 10 Years and my Linux box that I also built is server as a print server) and I'm sure I'd enjoy playing with those toys, but I've always wanted to be a PILOT, and not a systems operator. My last job was in IT and I spent a good part of it being a server administrator. Simply put, I wanted to hang myself either because I couldn't get the computers to do what I wanted them to, or because I was bored to death.

And speaking of "playing with toys," I also don't feel like enough people view this profession as just that, a profession. Guys don't have to earn much in this industry these days if you have the money throw down. You don't have to spend 2,000 hours instructing, and then 1,000 hours flying freight in the middle of the night in a beat up Beech 99 so that you might have the privilege of being able to fly at a turobprop commuter anymore (which BTW, RJ drivers are flying 50 seat jets when their pay scales are still based off those 19 seat pay scales from back in the day if anybody didn't realize that one already). I really, really enjoy teaching people how to fly airplanes. And I really, really enjoy flying airplanes; but it's a job to me. This is a skill that I use to earn a living, just like how I paid my bills in college with my computer knowledge. I'm afraid too many people look at flying as "something they love to do" so they'll do it for less than they deserve. I've seen people do it, myself included.

But then reality sets in and you realize you have bills to pay. I've seen it happen to more than a few folks that are stoked that they are finally getting paid to fly...for about a month. Then they realize that they only earned $800 that month and have to make a choice between paying their rent or their loan from flight training.

So what's the draw to getting to the end goal of flying a jet ASAP? The view? I've been on enough airliners, it's all about the same above a certain height (around 8,000' as far as I'm concerned). The chicks? Sorry, they don't dig pilots. The respect you get for commanding an 80,000 lbs., three story tall twin jet? Nope, people hand you their bags thinking you're a Skycap. Or maybe the allure of putting power to however many thousands of pounds of thrust you have at your fingertips...for the first 5,000 feet before you put on the autopilot as you climb up to FL350 (even though you're doing the last 10,000 feet of that at 500 FPM). Possibly the pay? That's laughable at best.

But I can see it now! I'm too old school (even though I'm only 24!), or I'm too bitter (home every night and weekends off? I don't think I'm really that bitter), or I'm too something that isn't with the times. The guys that have been doing this for years will say, "No ####" and the kids will accuse me of something that isn't hip.

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jtrain609 said:
Here's my concern guys, as a teacher and educator in this industry. I think that THIS is the problem, personally, and I think we should all be worried about this one.

.....
Now maybe I'm not normal in this reguard, but I'm not really looking forward to getting my first jet job right now. I enjoy flying airplanes...you know...without an autopilot, FMS or flight director. Now don't get me wrong, those seem like cool toys. ........
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John, you are a smart guy, make good points, and are making a good living while having a flying job while I am pounding away in an I.T. cube so what do I know.

That being said, with what I know about your job progression/selection, would you not have taken the job at the 121 carrier where you interviewed, and a couple of others where you applied, (one being a jet operator) if the position was offered to you?

It's very easy to find issues with one situation and praise another when one is working in the field they are praising. That's the problem I see with some of these types of comments people make.

That is all.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm worried that kids these days don't care about flying airplanes, they want to fly jets and nothing but. They have no interest in tail draggers, warbirds, floats, tundra tires, stick and rudder skills, NDB approaches (or heck even VOR approaches sometimes), maturing as a pilot, flying crappy equipment in horrible weather or finding out how great it feels to solo somebody as a primary instructor.
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I was just thinking about this the other day. It's been a LONG time since I've run into a kid who couldn't get enough aviation in his life. The kind of kid who hangs around airports, tries to get a line service job, talks to pilots every chance he gets, reads all the magazines about flying, etc. Somebody who is really passionate about flying for the sake of flying and loves all things aeronautical. It's too bad. I'm sure those types of kids are still around, but they're few and far between.

But what can ya do? If a bunch of young guys want to jump straight into flying jets around for low pay, that's fine with me--it's their loss. I realized early on that the journey is more important than the destination, and I'm glad I did. I'm still having a blast and haven't burned out on aviation. Not everybody can say that. I don't get upset or worried about it. I think it's more sad than anything else.

I've gotta run now...have a student coming back from his first solo XC, so I want to hear how it went. Too bad a lot of guys going to the airlines at 500 hours won't be able to know what I'm experiencing!
 
This post will take the thread off on a tangent, but it is some thoughts in response to what you just posted JEP.

Honestly, flying a regional jet compared to a seven-three compared to a turboprop compared to a piston is not all that different. They are airplanes, and we work hard to find a decent job that pays us well to fly them. I loved my old turboprop gig, and I really miss it. It was some good flying, but most importantly was with some good people. The same could be said for my current job. I like flying the glass-cockpit jet, mainly because I work for a great company that has great employees, just like my last job.

Each type of airplane has it's own "attraction." Flying the turboprop was fun, because the airplane hand-flew well and we were forced to use VOR/DME navigation only. No fancy FMS, glass-cockpit, or LNAV. Now, with all that stuff in the jet, I really appreciate it. It makes the job easier in some aspects, and more difficult in others. It is true... often we are cruising at FL370 just monitoring the systems and the routing, backing it up with conventional VOR navaids. However, actually flying the airplane is much more difficult, because jets are more demanding creatures than their straight-wing brethren. After you turn off all that gee-whiz stuff (I do it all the time), the airplane takes a lot more planning and effort to fly, and is less forgiving than a turboprop. This is particularly true up in the flight levels, where you may be operating the airplane in a small corner of its operating envelope. Luckily, the Embraer doesn't have a very small operating envelope; ours is fairly large even at max altitude.

I'll fly whatever allows me to work with good people, have fun, and have enough money and days off to enjoy myself at home.
 
Back to the Bob Marley;

Exodus, movement of ja people. Exodus, movement of ja people.

Not as popular, but more appropriate than....

I shot the sheriff, but I did not shot the depu-T.

:rotfl:
 
FlyChicaga said:
This post will take the thread off on a tangent, but it is some thoughts in response to what you just posted JEP.

......
I'll fly whatever allows me to work with good people, have fun, and have enough money and days off to enjoy myself at home.
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A bit of a tangent ;), but your closing is what it's all about.

I just don't get some of the bagging that goes on....:confused:

Maybe we can figure some of it out in Vegas this year.
 
jtrain609 said:
Is anybody else worried for the group of pilots that we're raising these days? We've got programs that are selling a dream (and loads of hype), packaged in an easy to use program that'll only cost you $XX,000. Zero to hero in 6 months, flying jets with anywhere from 250 to 600 hours.
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I worry too, and agree with pretty much everything you posted. The idea of newer pilots trying to get to a jet as quickly as possible scares me/ticks me off for a couple of reasons.

1) Safety--yes, I know that more hours don't necessarily make a better pilot, but greater experience on average will make a more effective crewmember
2) Compensation--a 300hr FO will (or at least SHOULD) be extremely grateful to have an airline job, which is going to make them more likely to work for crappy pay and conditions, potentially bringing down the rest of the company

I really can't get mad at these guys for merely wanting to fly a jet at low time, though. I think, Jtrain, that what you and I and everyone else who's at our approximate age/experience level should realize is that we're not really "old school", and that we've had a relatively easy time getting into the industry compared to how it's been in the past. I bounced around the pattern instructing for almost two years and had 1700hrs when I got my first airline job (turboprop flying), and I think that's still *very* low time compared to what airline requirements should be and have been in the past. On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet that at some point in history it's also been easier to get to an airline than it is right now.

I completely share your dislike for "RJ standardization courses" (WTF does that even mean?) and marketing strategies that target greedy rich kids with promises of getting to an airline before they even have to start shaving--but I don't want to get jealous that these guys aren't having to instruct as long as I did, because there's definately people who had to work a heck of a lot longer and harder than I did to get to an airline. I guess I don't see too many SJS-er's at my airline (and my base in particular) though, so maybe they'd annoy me more if I was around them more.

I feel extremely fortunate to be in the position I am in--the pay isn't too bad (really! I'll make almost 30 grand before taxes this year, almost double that on second-year pay), I love the ability to go anywhere anytime and move across the country on a moment's notice after breaking up with the girlfriend of 4.5yrs, and I feel honored that people trust me to get them from A to B safely.
 
Glossy ads have been around a long time. Not to worry. Once these get stick quick people get on the line awhile they realize how crazy it is to pay 50K to get paid 19K.
 
jtrain609 said:
I'm worried that kids these days don't care about flying airplanes, they want to fly jets and nothing but. They have no interest in tail draggers, warbirds, floats, tundra tires, stick and rudder skills, NDB approaches (or heck even VOR approaches sometimes), maturing as a pilot, flying crappy equipment in horrible weather or finding out how great it feels to solo somebody as a primary instructor. Now to me, all of that is a damned shame. We've got guys that are so goal oriented, interested in flying nothing more than RJ's and then, if they get lucky, a 737 one day at a mainline carrier.
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Well, let me give you a counter example. I like beer. So do many other people. But lots of people like to go to the store to buy their beer. And not good beer either--but Budweiser, Miller Genuine Draft, etc... They don't want to make their own beer (which makes dang fine beer!). They don't care about fermentation, alpha acid percentages in hops, lagering, bottling.... they just want to open a beer and drink. They don't even buy GOOD beer, like a good micro. It's all about the buzz.

See my point? While I enjoy "the journey", others just wanna get their drink on. And that's fine for them. They're not lesser people--they're just looking for something different than I am.

There's no great "honor" or "value" in flying NDBs, or VORs, or taildraggers, or whatever. Each of us has things they want to do, and they may well not care a flip about things that make other people excited about flying. And I SURE don't want them instructing if it's not really in their hearts to do!


jtrain609 said:
And speaking of "playing with toys," I also don't feel like enough people view this profession as just that, a profession. Guys don't have to earn much in this industry these days if you have the money throw down. ... And I really, really enjoy flying airplanes; but it's a job to me. This is a skill that I use to earn a living, just like how I paid my bills in college with my computer knowledge. I'm afraid too many people look at flying as "something they love to do" so they'll do it for less than they deserve. I've seen people do it, myself included.
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But don't you see? It's none of their concern if you want to do it to make money. Personally, I'd like to get paid to stay home and watch TV--but there are plenty of people willing to do that for free (or even pay to do it). So I can't find a job doing it. I can't really blame those folks who will do it for free if I planned on that as a career choice.

(and you thought YOU'D catch some heat!)
 
Yeah I worry too. But you know what I have come to realize? The old days are gone. Times have changed. I have read Ernest Gann, Bob Buck & Antoine de Saint-Exupery - I loved their writing about the ol' days of flying DC3s around and figuring out how weather works. Fact is, better technology, better training, the FAA, etc have turned our profession into something different. Is it good or bad? Depends who you ask. I say a bit of both.

I was once a 15 year old starry eye kid that soloed on my 16th birthday. I love avaition, always have, always will. However my airline job is in fact a job. It pays the bills, yada yada yada. I dig flying and all - but when I get home I care more about riding my bike than surfing airliners.net.

What I am trying to say is times have changed, this career has evolvled into a less romantic and less adventorous job. There will always be new ways and old ways to get to where we are. I don't plan on being some old timer that says, "well I did it in a 152 with only one VOR, blah blah blah". Nothing wrong with remembering days gone by, but embracing change isn't bad. There are exceptions, and some days I feel like Ernest Gann finding my way through clouds - but times have changed like it or not.
 
So, we're getting more "pilot guys" that just wanna fly jets than "aviators" that fly for the passion. I'd agree with that, John. I mention wanting to get a T-6 Texan, and a LOT of younger guys are like "Why would you want that? You could get a Diamond with a G1000!" One of the CAs I fly with occasional (he's a check airman, so I rarely get the chance to fly with him) is an airplane nut. He owned an airplane, but sold it so he could start saving money to make the jump to a major. Well, less than two months go by, and I see him later. He's got this sheepish look on his face and says "Yeah, well. My wife is gonna kill me now. I bought a Pitts. I just can't handle not having a fun airplane of my own."

As for "flying the airplane....." go do the River Visual into DCA at night, hand flying the CRJ, and then come tell me you're a sys admin. :) BTW, it's EASIER to hand fly the thing than try to keep up with knob twisting.
 
Who is to say one can't be an aviator and non-aviation geek at the same time? To be a pilot one has to have a certain level of aviation nerd-ness, but I get annoyed flying the guys who can only talk about airplanes.

I guess I'm somwhere in the middle considering I goof off here at JC :)
 
"but times have changed like it or not"

They have automation, FMC, and the dang thing can land itself. Pretty cool. At the same time. If all that breaks, you still have to go. Which makes know, and having experience with, the basics, a great idea in my book.

Some kids asks me "do you need to be good at algebra to be an airline pilot"? Well, I don't use algebra day in, day out, but knowing math helps you to think in a logical manner. It's a good building block. Same thing with the basics in flying. VOR stuff is the basic the ATC system is still built around. Landing a 152 in a crosswind is really a lot like landing a 767 in a crosswind.

I don't think there is any substitue for experience and I don't think a 300 hour pilot has the experience to be an airline pilot.
 
DE727UPS said:
"but times have changed like it or not"

They have automation, FMC, and the dang thing can land itself. Pretty cool. At the same time. If all that breaks, you still have to go. Which makes know, and having experience with, the basics, a great idea in my book.

Some kids asks me "do you need to be good at algebra to be an airline pilot"? Well, I don't use algebra day in, day out, but knowing math helps you to think in a logical manner. It's a good building block. Same thing with the basics in flying. VOR stuff is the basic the ATC system is still built around. Landing a 152 in a crosswind is really a lot like landing a 767 in a crosswind.

I don't think there is any substitue for experience and I don't think a 300 hour pilot has the experience to be an airline pilot.
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To clarify here - I am not a fan of low timers in turbine a/c (glad my airline is holding our standards for hiring), the basics are important. Hence the many times when I was a CFI I turned off my students GPS, MFD, etc and made them use dead reckoning and their sectional.

We need to embrace technology but not forget the stuff that makes us aviators.
 
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