LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
Man I have too little time in this industry to even try to speculate, but if Multi time seems to impress the airlines so much, I would think turbine time, no matter how acquired, would impress them more?
What do you expect?
- Thread starter moleman
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Man I have too little time in this industry to even try to speculate, but if Multi time seems to impress the airlines so much, I would think turbine time, no matter how acquired, would impress them more?
SIUav8er
Narcosis
It wasnt the "type" of pilot time I was referring to, it was "how" the time was built. Sure beech 1900 time is way better than seminole time for the logbook/resume, but if 2 guys have the same amount of multi time but one was an MEI and the other was right seat ballast for a PFJ operation like GIA, I would take the MEI.
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
I would agree with you, If I were the guy hiring, I would too. But I am not unfortunately.
I guess what I am wondering is if just the fact one has turbine time would actually go farther to an airline or not.
I guess what I am wondering is if just the fact one has turbine time would actually go farther to an airline or not.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
I see what youre saying. On paper, they do look better. But at the jobs I have done out of instructing, buying time in a 1900 wouldnt have got me very far. Everybody respects CFI time, anyone with a deep pocket can buy gear opperator time in pretty much anything... doesnt make them a good pilot.
But are we not just talking about 250 hours? If so, only someone who is disingenuous can call that "paying for a job." Sounds like someone paid for experience, which to me sounds like flight training, which is how we all got where we are. They arent right seat career pay-for-jobs and it is ridiculous to make that comparison. Furthermore, it also seems like Gulfstream is a company with two different missions in the business world- Regional Air Carrier and Flight Training. Its America and their business plan. If I was on a hiring board I am not sure I would look at a 250 hour stint at a regional as "pay for job" anymore than i would look at a type rating as a "pay for job." I guess I dont get the whole "take one for the rest of us" union attitude. 
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
I will ask again what keeps Delta, AA, United or UPS from doing the same thing that GIA does? I guess it is ok to pay for a few(250) hours of 757 or 777.But are we not just talking about 250 hours? If so, only someone who is disingenuous can call that "paying for a job." Sounds like someone paid for experience, which to me sounds like flight training, which is how we all got where we are. They arent right seat career pay-for-jobs and it is ridiculous to make that comparison. Furthermore, it also seems like Gulfstream is a company with two different missions in the business world- Regional Air Carrier and Flight Training. Its America and their business plan. If I was on a hiring board I am not sure I would look at a 250 hour stint at a regional as "pay for job" anymore than i would look at a type rating as a "pay for job." I guess I dont get the whole "take one for the rest of us" union attitude.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
But are we not just talking about 250 hours? If so, only someone who is disingenuous can call that "paying for a job." Sounds like someone paid for experience, which to me sounds like flight training, which is how we all got where we are. They arent right seat career pay-for-jobs and it is ridiculous to make that comparison. Furthermore, it also seems like Gulfstream is a company with two different missions in the business world- Regional Air Carrier and Flight Training. Its America and their business plan. If I was on a hiring board I am not sure I would look at a 250 hour stint at a regional as "pay for job" anymore than i would look at a type rating as a "pay for job." I guess I dont get the whole "take one for the rest of us" union attitude.
OK, lets say we consider it "training"
I would still take the guy that has proven himself as an employed pilot over someone that has been in training for 250 hours of logbook padding.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
Exactly, I guess if we go the "pay for experience" route, no airline will EVER HAVE TO HIRE ANOTHER PILOT. Because people will just keep "paying for experience" in 200 seat aircraft.
If anyboby wants to pay for experience, I have a right seat position open in my employers SR22 turbo.
Well, keep it real. Nobody is going to the airlines with just 250 B1900 time and calling that a job winner. It will be part of their resume with, I am sure, a healthy dose of Dual given. How could that hurt?
Gonzo,
Yeah, what would be the problem with it? I actually dont see one. A free market will right its own wrongs. If the idea sucks, it wont last. If people pay for it, it is called a successful product.
wjmiller3- Do you mean for us to believe you have never paid for any experience? Do you hold any ratings? Did you pay for your training? Do you have a market solution that would allow an aspiring commercial pilot to train and become experienced without ever paying for it? You chicken littles are crying about the self destruction of the airlines with this program when it only applies to entry level commercial pilots training to get a job- not flying for free as a career. That is a straw man argument with no intellectual merit. C'mon, please.
Gonzo,
Yeah, what would be the problem with it? I actually dont see one. A free market will right its own wrongs. If the idea sucks, it wont last. If people pay for it, it is called a successful product.
wjmiller3- Do you mean for us to believe you have never paid for any experience? Do you hold any ratings? Did you pay for your training? Do you have a market solution that would allow an aspiring commercial pilot to train and become experienced without ever paying for it? You chicken littles are crying about the self destruction of the airlines with this program when it only applies to entry level commercial pilots training to get a job- not flying for free as a career. That is a straw man argument with no intellectual merit. C'mon, please.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
Do you ever want to get paid as a pilot? Or do you plan on paying to fly your whole career? Cause what if every airline, cargo, and corporate operation had this type program? You just cut half the pilot jobs in the market. And you call that a succesful product???????
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
Yes, I paid for all my ratings, at ATP for that fact. Worked there for over a year. Yes I do have a market solution for commercial pilots to gain experience, and how I gained some myself. And guess what, you even get PAID while doing it. Its called FLIGHT INSTRUCTING. And you say my argument has no intellectual merit?
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Just have to. . .
The bold portion:
Guess what, it's been done before, and the "free-market" has righted itself. Because it sucked and thus isn't done anymore at the various 121 operations that did PFJ/PFT a decade and longer ago.
But, you'll of course ignore that.
Hell no, I wont ignore it. It is going to happen, but it is GIA's business idea and it includes flight training, of which they are charging a price and some people are paying it. It is called business.
wjmiller3- Were you hired to be a CFI before you had any ratings? because if not, then you PAID for training. You're right, Flight Instruction is a way to get paid building experience. It is the route I went (800 hours worth.) But is isnt the only route. (I emphatically believe it is the best route- just like you.) Pipeline survey is a route. So is 135 flying. Banner towing, etc. and so is paying for 250 hours with a 121 operator.
Being afraid that all 121 operators will pay the captain and be paid by the copilot is crazy and is a strawman arguement. Asking for more money is asking the student if he wants to buy more time training time. Whats the big deal? What flight school doesnt do it?
It is a successful product if it makes the business owner money. That is the definition. It does upset the union mentality, but it meets a market need.
wjmiller3- Were you hired to be a CFI before you had any ratings? because if not, then you PAID for training. You're right, Flight Instruction is a way to get paid building experience. It is the route I went (800 hours worth.) But is isnt the only route. (I emphatically believe it is the best route- just like you.) Pipeline survey is a route. So is 135 flying. Banner towing, etc. and so is paying for 250 hours with a 121 operator.
Being afraid that all 121 operators will pay the captain and be paid by the copilot is crazy and is a strawman arguement. Asking for more money is asking the student if he wants to buy more time training time. Whats the big deal? What flight school doesnt do it?
It is a successful product if it makes the business owner money. That is the definition. It does upset the union mentality, but it meets a market need.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
So long as you realize it's just business. . .realize this.
We, as professionals, are doing what we feel needs to be done to improve the quality of our lives within this profession.
That means, not putting up with stupid type of business tactics that negatively affect the profession.
You can stop with the union drivel, as this isn't about union politics or anything of the sort. It's about protecting the ability of professionals to earn a living, without having to shell out MORE money for the opportunity to work in this career.
We, as professionals, are doing what we feel needs to be done to improve the quality of our lives within this profession.
That means, not putting up with stupid type of business tactics that negatively affect the profession.
You can stop with the union drivel, as this isn't about union politics or anything of the sort. It's about protecting the ability of professionals to earn a living, without having to shell out MORE money for the opportunity to work in this career.
poser765
Well-Known Member
It's like this. I go and get a BS in Computer Science. I come out with that experience and training which i paid for. you are qualified to work but you are still a newb in the industry.
Ok so you apply for a programming job that has 2 years work experience required. You don't have that. They call you and tell you that you don't qualify but then offer to give you the job if you pay them 20k...are you going to take this "job." If you have any amount of self worth you won't...because you know you can get a less cool job for two years and gain the experience WHILE GETTING PAID.
Now if you have no self worth and would like to take the job, what happens to me the computer programer with the 2 years work history? Do i even have a chance?
Hmm lets see Kid A is desperate enough to do it for free and even pay us, and Man A is selfish enough to demand a fair wage to live on. I think we'll go with Kid A.
How can someone not see that as bad?
Does having 500 hours total and 250 121 sic help you more than my 135 mins flight times?
Do you benifit more than those of us with real jobs(instructing, banner towing, etc)
Ok so you apply for a programming job that has 2 years work experience required. You don't have that. They call you and tell you that you don't qualify but then offer to give you the job if you pay them 20k...are you going to take this "job." If you have any amount of self worth you won't...because you know you can get a less cool job for two years and gain the experience WHILE GETTING PAID.
Now if you have no self worth and would like to take the job, what happens to me the computer programer with the 2 years work history? Do i even have a chance?
Hmm lets see Kid A is desperate enough to do it for free and even pay us, and Man A is selfish enough to demand a fair wage to live on. I think we'll go with Kid A.
How can someone not see that as bad?
Does having 500 hours total and 250 121 sic help you more than my 135 mins flight times?
Do you benifit more than those of us with real jobs(instructing, banner towing, etc)
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I'm glad you use Kid and Man as your subjects.
Regretably it's largely the same scenario in our industry. Kid with no previous career experience just willing to shell out more cash, all for what? Where as Man, realizes the long term implications of such a marketing ploy and who also values his professional self-worth then takes the high road.
Regretably it's largely the same scenario in our industry. Kid with no previous career experience just willing to shell out more cash, all for what? Where as Man, realizes the long term implications of such a marketing ploy and who also values his professional self-worth then takes the high road.
Michael95U
Well-Known Member
Well said. When you apply the PFT/PFJ scenario to a job situation outside of aviation, no one in their right mind would do it. For some reason, airplanes cloud good judgement......
poser765
Well-Known Member
I think the problem, as I see it, is the nature of pilots. How many programmers, salesman, or accountants, are as passionate about programming, closing the sell or...ummm...accounting?... as pilots are about flying. To so many people the idea of flying a jet is so exciting it's hard to look at it as work.
If someone came up to me and said "Chris, I'm going to take the lear for a spin around the pattern...want to go?" most people's response would not be yes, but hell yes!
That some mentality just doesn't translate to other occupations. "hey Chris I'm going to go try and sell this lady the new maytag watcher...wanna watch," "nah, i'm good."
The truth is, it IS still just a job. Maybe a good job, but this is how we chose to make a living. You PFJ people surely can't be so selfish and impatiant with SJS that you can't see what your actions do to those of us with more responsibility.
MikeOH58
Well-Known Member
Don't confuse passion for flight, with some people's passion to achieve the image.
And why is anyone mentioning unions in here? I am one of the least supportive guys of unions on this website, and I think this is crap. Many of us have little to no work right now. Pay sucks, but for those of us around 1,500-2000 tt, right seat in a 1900 is the next logical progression, yet we are being robbed of that, because some dork, who's never held a real job wants to play airline pilot, and just so happens to have the right last name.
Ya know I never thought i'd start to resent aviation, or start looking into other career fields, but when you have crap like people buying jobs going on, it really does make you think whats the point? I put in, and i'm continuing to put in hard work as a traffic watch pilot/flight instructor/sky rides/p. 135, and never padded my logbook, yet you have some kid who thinks its gonna impress his family and friends to be an airline pilot, and take paying jobs away from us.
:banghead:
And why is anyone mentioning unions in here? I am one of the least supportive guys of unions on this website, and I think this is crap. Many of us have little to no work right now. Pay sucks, but for those of us around 1,500-2000 tt, right seat in a 1900 is the next logical progression, yet we are being robbed of that, because some dork, who's never held a real job wants to play airline pilot, and just so happens to have the right last name.
Ya know I never thought i'd start to resent aviation, or start looking into other career fields, but when you have crap like people buying jobs going on, it really does make you think whats the point? I put in, and i'm continuing to put in hard work as a traffic watch pilot/flight instructor/sky rides/p. 135, and never padded my logbook, yet you have some kid who thinks its gonna impress his family and friends to be an airline pilot, and take paying jobs away from us.
:banghead:
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