What do you expect?

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moleman

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MikeD said:
What is it with the ATP forum section here? Constant problem after problem. Time was, about 5-6 years ago, that the old PanAm forum held that distinction.

Guess the trophy has been passed......

The problem is that when someone posts something positive about ATP they are descended upon by people that appear or in some cases are clearly pushing other schools, and are badgered, harrassed and put down.

When someone posts something negative about ATP, no matter how outlandish and far fetched it goes unquestioned and all the same folks chime in.

ATP mislead no one ATP did nothing wrong. This guy that spends an awful lot of time getting people to go to an FBO is the one that is misleading people.

Now that someone or a couple folks has bothered to question one of these people all hell has broke loose.

Must be pretty bad at these other schools to use such scum bag tactics.
 
A lot of people have positive things to say about ATP. I suggest you spend some time reading this forum.

But you're not going to see people standing up for interns paying to be in the right seat of an airliner. Doesn't matter if it's at ATP, Falcon, or Harvard.
 
ATP's made the switch to scum bag tactics. I have no respect for that operation. Horray ATP, way to lower the bar.
 
A lot of people have positive things to say about ATP. I suggest you spend some time reading this forum.

I know alot of people have good things to say about ATP. That was the point of my post. I'd just like an environment where they aren't badgered and harassed by ATPs competition when they take the time to try to help out others.
 
I've said some good things about ATP here. I did a multiengine add-on with them and did my ATP written there. I think that they are a big company in a crappy economy. When the economy was good, they were a company that was growing too fast and had very little oversight. I haven't a clue what the deal is now. Haven't been keeping up with them but I would imagine they might have a bit of a revenue issue and problems related to that?
 
I know alot of people have good things to say about ATP. That was the point of my post. I'd just like an environment where they aren't badgered and harassed by ATPs competition when they take the time to try to help out others.
So you want an environment where everyone agrees with you? How about instead of a forum there's just a link to the ATP website?
 
Thanks for proving the point.

You are welcome. I've been pretty pro ATP, but recent events have led me to realize that some of the people running that outfit are scumbags.

If somebody posts something positive about ATP then I don't think anyone's out there saying ATP sucks because of it. However, I hope you don't think that buying a job and screwing me over career wise is good.
 
If you look back about a year in these forums, you will see that there was a ton of support for ATP, in fact good luck coming into here and saying something negative without being beaten to death.

You'll also see that Gulfstream Academy is frowned upon, not because they are a bad school, in fact I cant really comment on the quality of education, but because they prey on those who dont know the industry. The set a very poor standard when it comes to an airline pilots quality of life, that being the money part of QOL. They say money doesnt equal happiness, but when you dont make enough to live, not having money can certainly equal unhappiness.

Back in the day pilots would have had to pay for their airline portion of training. We have accomplished upgrading that standard to where almost every airline will pay for your part 121 training, they will pay for your hotel, they will pay you a salary, they will pay for your type rating.

When an airline comes in and asks you to pay for it, and you do, then that tells other airlines that they may able to do the same thing. Eventually leading to all airlines having you pay for training that they once would have paid for. They might have you pay for accomadations while in training, they might not even pay you. This is BAD for the industry.

We want to be paid for our services. We are professionals and expect to be treated as such. Once we are hired by an airline we are professional pilots, thats why we expect to be paid for any training once being hired. Hell in some countries an airline would pay for you to go from PPL through CML and Type. Just a year ago some flight schools were even paying for CML rated pilots to get their CFI certs.

For the most part on these forums, and from what I have seen throughout the industry ATP has a reputation of getting you what you paid for, in the time you were promised. ATP got me everything I wanted, in the time I expected. I am exactly where I had planned to be in the industry right now and without ATP it wouldnt have happened.

Its amazing how many people I fly with on a daily basis who have been to ATP for maybe a single rating, to complete an ATP written, the career program, or instructed at ATP. I would say 5% of those people have nothing but good things to say about ATP, and we all agree that we wouldnt be where we are currently without going to ATP.

But when a company, any company, starts working with a company whom has been regarding as lowering the quality of life for professional pilots, people are going to get pissed. And that's what has happened.
 
Sounds like someone needs the Wambulance.

Give it a rest moleman, or I'm sure the staff here will do it for you.

There were some great things about ATP, sadly they've made their own grave in regards to how they are viewed by the overwhelming professional piloting community. Gulfstream was bad a year, two years, five years, a decade ago. . .it's still bad for the profession and any efforts put forward to improve our collective standing. Just because there has been a marriage with ATP doesn't make the program some spectacular young pilot's wet dream.

Further, many people here have helped countless individuals find their way in this career. No matter what path. That's the overall purpose of this website, to educate and inform.

Many individuals have had information that was clearly incorrect set straight by the members of this very forum. Information that is in relation to multiple schools and companies across this country, not just ATP.

But anyway - the above will fall on deaf ears once again.
 
I think a lot of people are pulling the union line about people paying for a job.
I'll have to agree with the unions on this issue. Why does a first officer make 19k a year? Because some one will do it for free! This is why people are upset with ATP right now.
I simply view this as a company doing anything it possibly can to stay in business. ATP is a business, nothing more. A flight school whom teaches mostly US citizens in this current economy is eating dirt right now. Even I am eating dirt right now with the Europeans. The exchange rates are horrible, everyone is hurting, it is only going to get worse. All of this without all the added taxes Obama wants to throw at the general aviation community. Things are not looking good.
 
The last thread on this subject was closed by the mods so what do we do start another one. Everyone can see from my pervious posts that I am not anti-ATP nor am I pro-ATP. I am a former student that got everything I expected from them. That being said ATP aligned themselves with a business that has a bad image with airline pilots. That I believe was a mistake. ATP is not a bad company but this partnership is a bad idea.

Anybody willing to pay for a right seat at a regional, really needs to look at themselves in the mirror. I am not an airline pilot yet, but even I know that paying for something that you should be paid for is a load of crap. Hopefully the mods will shut this down before it goes to far again.
 
Well, I know this is going to ruffle feathers, please believe me when I say it is NOT my intention- BUT, is the only objection to the whole GIA thing because it is counter a union perspective on the market?

IF I had more money or the ability to finance it (and was dumb enough to finance anything in this economy) and I thought it would further MY career aims, why not pay for the training? Why not? I would get 250Turbine with 121 experience and a bunch of FTD training. It would help me with my career, so why not? Believe it or not, as an American I see my career goals as personalized- i am trying to make my life better through hard work to support my future family. If paying for GIA time (which I would view as training) would help me do that, then I would. No, it isnt a union perspective. I am not anti union, but I refuse to expect anyone with a CMEL/INST to behave with a union perspective just because I do.

Just my two cents.
 
Well, I know this is going to ruffle feathers, please believe me when I say it is NOT my intention- BUT, is the only objection to the whole GIA thing because it is counter a union perspective on the market?

IF I had more money or the ability to finance it (and was dumb enough to finance anything in this economy) and I thought it would further MY career aims, why not pay for the training? Why not? I would get 250Turbine with 121 experience and a bunch of FTD training. It would help me with my career, so why not? Believe it or not, as an American I see my career goals as personalized- i am trying to make my life better through hard work to support my future family. If paying for GIA time (which I would view as training) would help me do that, then I would. No, it isnt a union perspective. I am not anti union, but I refuse to expect anyone with a CMEL/INST to behave with a union perspective just because I do.

Just my two cents.
What keeps Delta, AA, United, or UPS from doing the same thing as GIA? What if there is no career to go to because people will pay to do it?
 
Well, I know this is going to ruffle feathers, please believe me when I say it is NOT my intention- BUT, is the only objection to the whole GIA thing because it is counter a union perspective on the market?

IF I had more money or the ability to finance it (and was dumb enough to finance anything in this economy) and I thought it would further MY career aims, why not pay for the training? Why not? I would get 250Turbine with 121 experience and a bunch of FTD training. It would help me with my career, so why not? Believe it or not, as an American I see my career goals as personalized- i am trying to make my life better through hard work to support my future family. If paying for GIA time (which I would view as training) would help me do that, then I would. No, it isnt a union perspective. I am not anti union, but I refuse to expect anyone with a CMEL/INST to behave with a union perspective just because I do.

Just my two cents.

Put yourself on a hiring board. Lets say candidate "A" did exactly what you did (paid for a job at GIA). Candidate "B" on the other hand worked his way through being a CFI, banner tower, 135 stuff, whatever. Sure he has less (or no) "part 121" time, but that doesnt necessarily mean that he is any worse of a pilot. The difference is, he worked his way up as a professional. The guy that bought all his time didnt do that. He was a student (and customer) from day one, all throughout his "part 121" experience. IMO, there is a huge difference between someone that worked their way up to airline hiring minimums vs buying their time in a turboprop.

I would take the guy that earned his time over a guy that bought his time any day, and I am sure most captains on an interview board feel the same way.
 
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