dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Some of the flight mechanics...man, I don't know how they do it. Further discussion is best done off the boards.
What Are Your Peeves and Problems as a Dispatcher?
- Thread starter TomatoFlames
- Start date
Some of the flight mechanics...man, I don't know how they do it. Further discussion is best done off the boards.
manniax
Well-met in the Ka-tet
Hey there FX,
No worries about thread hijacking at all - this is actually another issue that could potentially be a problem at some airlines. There are actually not too many regs with regards to dispatcher duty limitations - our requirment for days off is the same as yours, and can be very broadly interpreted - from you MUST have one day off a week, to you can work 26 days in a row, as long as you have four days off at the end of tht month. And yes, we can't be "scheduled" for more than 10 hours, but you can end up working more than 10 if there is a problem such as late flights - at one regional airline I worked for, I ended up working close to 15 hours one night when all our flights were running late - I met the morning person the next day on what was normally a 20 hour desk. This, too, varies a lot by airline - at my current (major) airline we are very careful to not have any dispatchers work more than 10 hours straight. At some carriers, some non-dispatch positions (such as ATC coordinator) are scheduled for 12 hour shifts, and at others, nobody is scheduled more than 10 hours...kind of odd. About the only hard and fast rule is a required 8 hour break between dispatch shifts, which I really don't think is enough time but nobody asked my opinion when the reg was written.
TomatoFlames
Well-Known Member
Do you mean the pilots that call and want new routes because their primary source is, as they admit, the Weather Channel? I see this once a week.
I think someone at HQ making decisions is more vital than you realize. It's the dispatcher that sees the traffic management initiatives and airspace constaint issues, re-routes that people are receiving, dozens of different weather maps from approved sources, fuel analysis data, and communication access to anyone in the system with the press of a few buttons. And that's just so manage the legal and safety aspect.
Then we have the economical aspect of it all. We make fuel decisions on things that you folks simply are not aware of beyond your station. We are trained in that. The same way I don't expect to know everything about your 757 is the same way I don't expect you to know everything about air traffic or fuel. We make decisions that save a •load of money or spend a •load, which make or break the airline.
So with that, regardless of being a dispatcher or not, I am glad SOMEONE has authority on the ground that is not the pilot, because there is are so many legal requirements to plan a flight that you NEED someone that has that authority. This is why we have an airman's license. I know that so many pilots (and not accusing you personally) have this "dumb, unworthy dispatcher" feeling toward us, but we do what we do and are what we are for a reason.
Of course, if the Captain wants to take over that responsibility they are more than welcome to train for an addition 6-8 months, add to recurrent classes, learn the flight planning and weather programs we all use and have our airline's build dispatch desks at every station so the Captains can show up two hours earlier than usual to plan their own flights.
Until then, in the interest of safety, a dispatcher cannot be a "Here Captain Daddy, please check to see if my homework is correct" position. You need that ground-authority. It lets you fly the plane and not have to worry about the rest. Trust in us, please.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Good post, and we absolutely do trust you guys to do your jobs. Though like it or not, a mistake is still the Captain's responsibility; trust me, I've seen the ugly side of that. The dispatch release contains the PIC's signature for a reason; he's signing off, as the final authority, that the flight planning is correct. You (as the dispatcher) and I (as the F/O) can certainly still get in our fair share of trouble if we launch without it being correct, but the PIC will always get the brunt based on 91.3.
Yes, I think some of that is unfair, but that's how it works.
69beers
Well-Known Member
Dasleben,
Have you taken the time to review 121.557, or any part of 121 for that matter? While I understand student pilots begin their regulatory studies in part 91, eventually a select few will take on a career in professional aviation flying scheduled operations under 121 domestic & flag rules. At this point in a pilot's career it is paramount that they are thoroughly familiar with parts 119 and 121 so they don't jeopardize their license (among other things) by thinking they are still operating under 91 rules.
And if you have already familiarized yourself with 119 & 121, then just declare an emergency and do whatever you want. Hey, just tell the Feds that you're the pilot!
Have you taken the time to review 121.557, or any part of 121 for that matter? While I understand student pilots begin their regulatory studies in part 91, eventually a select few will take on a career in professional aviation flying scheduled operations under 121 domestic & flag rules. At this point in a pilot's career it is paramount that they are thoroughly familiar with parts 119 and 121 so they don't jeopardize their license (among other things) by thinking they are still operating under 91 rules.
And if you have already familiarized yourself with 119 & 121, then just declare an emergency and do whatever you want. Hey, just tell the Feds that you're the pilot!
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Part 91 does not simply go away when you start working for a 121 operation. And yes, I have worked under 121 as a pilot in domestic/supplemental/flag. Part 91.3 still applies. Part 91 is called "General Operating and Flight Rules" for a reason.
Part 91.1, Applicability, should clear up any confusion.
Dasleben, 121 doesn't go away either and 121 wins when they don't agree with each other. 121 says domestic and flag operators must have enough dispatchers to exercise operational control. Operational control includes authority over both initiation and conduct of a flight. Now compare 91.3 with 121.533e and remember dispatchers are not crewmembers.
No one doubts emergency authority but operational control is shared authority without an emergency.
If 91 always applies then you would have a 45 minute reserve on flag flights too.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Let's just put it this way: The PIC controls the parking brake. 'Nuff said.
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but everything comes down to the PIC. Trust me, I've played that game as PIC before with the FAA (thankfully I was protected). You guys can believe anything you'd like, but as far as the Feds are concerned, the PIC is always the final authority on a flight.
Let's just put it this way: The PIC controls the parking brake. 'Nuff said.
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but everything comes down to the PIC. Trust me, I've played that game as PIC before with the FAA (thankfully I was protected). You guys can believe anything you'd like, but as far as the Feds are concerned, the PIC is always the final authority on a flight.
Can I believe the same Feds who wrote the FARs with shared operational control?
Relax, nobody's trying to steal your cookies. But if we don't try keep you out of severe ice or lines of storms after takeoff, believe it that they'll come after us too.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Can I believe the same Feds who wrote the FARs with shared operational control?
Relax, nobody's trying to steal your cookies. But if we don't try keep you out of severe ice or lines of storms after takeoff, believe it that they'll come after us too.
I simply know all too well what PIC responsibility means. Unless you've been in the seat, it can't be described over a website. I'm not threatened by someone trying to "steal my cookies," because I have sat in the seat as PIC, and understand fully what it entails. Let's just put it this way: If you're not strapped into the pointy end of the tube, there's no way that you're directly responsible for the machine. End of story.
I'll take my leave from this thread at this point, because I can tell that I'm getting nowhere. We all have our jobs and responsibilities, but the PIC is, and always will be, the direct, final authority for the flight.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
You guys still don't seem to grasp what I'm talking about.
Nobody's going to operate a flight without the company's say so. Why on earth would they? However, the PIC has sole authority to stop the operation for safety reasons, even if the dispatcher signs off on it. That applies to all phases of flight, not just preflight. Part 91.3 makes this all clear (and yes, Part 91 still applies; I don't know which dispatch school the guy went to above that told him it doesn't).
You are not the PIC. You are not in charge of the jet.
Okay, I'm gone for realsies this time!
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
dasleben said:You guys still don't seem to grasp what I'm talking about.
Nobody's going to operate a flight without the company's say so. Why on earth would they? However, the PIC has sole authority to stop the operation for safety reasons, even if the dispatcher signs off on it. That applies to all phases of flight, not just preflight. Part 91.3 makes this all clear (and yes, Part 91 still applies; I don't know which dispatch school the guy went to above that told him it doesn't).
You are not the PIC. You are not in charge of the jet.
Okay, I'm gone for realsies this time!
Did you just say "for realsies"? Really? Lol...
69beers
Well-Known Member
Let me help you out here;
Ok, now you're getting warmer...for realsies!
Cockpit Egocentricity: Keeping licensed dispatchers on the job since 1938....
Ok, now you're getting warmer...for realsies!
Cockpit Egocentricity: Keeping licensed dispatchers on the job since 1938....
Mach82
Well-Known Member
Very true. Often our pilots get mx airworthiness release and dispatch release confused.
This is just my take on it and of course everything is always open to interpretation. We dispatchers prepare each flight based upon weather, ATC, MEL/CDLs, etc. The PIC reviews the release and either signs it in agreement with how the flight will be conducted or calls dispatch with questions or suggestions. I say this as I've had numerous calls about routing issues with our latest NAVLOAD (another story). My belief is that once the brakes are released, the PIC is responsible for the crew and operation of the aircraft. My role has now become one of support, as I can see the whole picture of his flight and keep them updated with pertinent info and assist with options if an enroute diversion is deemed necessary. That's how I understand it as a "green" dispatcher. That's what I love about this job...I'm always learning