What Are Your Peeves and Problems as a Dispatcher?

Krystal said:
Youre not getting any sympathy from our side. Whining that youre hungry after 3 hours when I havent eaten in 12 isnt going to make me feel sorry for you.
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Wasn't asking for any. While I'm sorry you sometimes miss a meal or a potty break, the guys in the seats are ultimately the ones who need to be able to operate safely.

ljg said:
Wrong.
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I actually read through my GOM and the regs before I posted that; at what other point during the flight do you share joint responsibility with the PIC?

The reason I ask is because PIC authority is being constantly eroded at many carriers, which is not a good thing.
 
Krystal said:
Yah! Respec his au-thoritay!
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This sarcastic response is exactly what I'm talking out. There has to be someone in charge, to take the brunt of the responsibility, and to make the final call. Airlines have slowly been chopping back the PIC's authority to make decisions, and it's getting to the point safety may be compromised by someone attempting to make calls based on incomplete information over in HQ. This is a very big deal in supplemental-type flying, where the crew is operating in areas where weather reporting may be incomplete or inaccurate, or a host of other issues exist outside the reach of someone thousands of miles away. You need someone on the ground to be the final authority. That person is neither you or I.

It's your job as a dispatcher, and my job as an F/O, to advise the captain as necessary, understanding that we do not share in that PIC responsibility except in limited roles (you in the preflight planning phase, me if I feel safety or legality is compromised by a decision). I understand that it can be difficult for a Type-A personality to give up the need to be in complete control, but you just have to sit back, relax (I've had to learn this too), and simply do your job in the role you've been assigned.
 
False. The PIC shares operational control with the dispatcher. That is the initiation, conduction, and termination of the flight. If the PIC makes a decision without the concurrence of his dispatcher, he is in violation of 121.533b and therefore is in an emergent situation requiring him to excise his authority. Note that a dispatcher on the ground is not a crew member.
 
DISPATCH NOTIFICATION
When it becomes necessary to consider a diversion, including if going to a
designated alternate, the Captain must make every effort to confer with the
dispatcher. This coordination allows the two jointly-responsible individuals to assure
themselves that the best course of action under the circumstances is used.
Should the Captain deem it inadvisable to proceed as requested, the Captain will
take such action as he considers necessary. He will keep the dispatcher advised of
the flight’s progress. Use of Captain’s emergency authority as well as numerous
other diversion situations require the Captain to submit an Irregular Operations
Report. See Required Reports in the Communications chapter for guidance.

GOING TO A NEW DESTINATION (DIVERSION OR ALTERNATE)
Unless an emergency has been declared, diversion to a new destination requires:
 The Dispatch Release to be amended to show the new destination.
 Unless going to the alternate designated in the Release, alternate airport-naming
requirements be met.


Many parts to this but I am lazy and my FOM happened to be open to the page talking about diverting to an alternate.

And this also brings up another pet peeve. Please call if diverting to your alternate. Getting a call from you once on the ground at that alternate does not make for a good day.
 
dasleben said:
Wasn't asking for any. While I'm sorry you sometimes miss a meal or a potty break, the guys in the seats are ultimately the ones who need to be able to operate safely.
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I would argue that everyone who has anything to do with the flight should be able to "operate safely"...I am sure you would like the controller separating your aircraft, the mechanic who fixed your aircraft, and the dispatcher who planned your route all to be doing their jobs safely as well.
 
MT said:
False. The PIC shares operational control with the dispatcher. That is the initiation, conduction, and termination of the flight. If the PIC makes a decision without the concurrence of his dispatcher, he is in violation of 121.533b and therefore is in an emergent situation requiring him to excise his authority. Note that a dispatcher on the ground is not a crew member.
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Operational control is indeed a function of the company, no doubt. A PIC can't change a destination, alternate, or launch an aircraft without the company's authorization (except in an emergency). However, the dispatcher should understand that issues may exist beyond the scope of what the dispatcher can see or do, and that the PIC may need to deviate from that operational control to meet the need of the situation or emergency (which you've alluded to). What it comes down to is 91.3:

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.
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manniax said:
I would argue that everyone who has anything to do with the flight should be able to "operate safely"...I am sure you would like the controller separating your aircraft, the mechanic who fixed your aircraft, and the dispatcher who planned your route all to be doing their jobs safely as well.
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I agree 100% with this, though neither you or I (as the F/O) are the final authority.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, or say that dispatchers are unnecessary. I'm simply saying that overstepping your responsibility or authority, if you're not the PIC, is a slippery slope. This is from someone who flies the line for a living. There is a whole lot of gray that exists outside scheduled domestic ops (and even a lot that exists in it).
 
If a PIC invokes 91.3 then it is an emergent situation. True the PIC is the solely responsible for the aircraft. However to use this and violate a FAR such as 121.533. 91.3B says it is an emergency. It is my ticket on the line as well so when the PIC proceeds without my concurrence, I want both him and I covered by him declaring.
 
It is also important to remember who can declare and emergency.

Sec. 121.557

Emergencies: Domestic and flag operations.

(a) In an emergency situation that requires immediate decision and action the pilot in command may take any action that he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such a case he may deviate from prescribed operations procedures and methods, weather minimums, and this chapter, to the extent required in the interests of safety.
(b) In an emergency situation arising during flight that requires immediate decision and action by an aircraft dispatcher, and that is known to him, the aircraft dispatcher shall advise the pilot in command of the emergency, shall ascertain the decision of the pilot in command, and shall have the decision recorded. If the aircraft dispatcher cannot communicate with the pilot, he shall declare an emergency and take any action that he considers necessary under the circumstances.
(c) Whenever a pilot in command or dispatcher exercises emergency authority, he shall keep the appropriate ATC facility and dispatch centers fully informed of the progress of the flight. The person declaring the emergency shall send a written report of any deviation through the certificate holder's operations manager, to the Administrator. A dispatcher shall send his report within 10 days after the date of the emergency, and a pilot in command shall send his report within 10 days after returning to his home base



Also how did we get side tracked with emergency authority? Were we not talking about regular ops before?

Also can what we are having be called a FARDOWN instead of a THOWDOWN?
 
Absolutely. I wish I was somewhat remotely busy...just enjoyin the football game here reviewing my stuff for this week.
 
dasleben said:
Operational control is indeed a function of the company, no doubt. A PIC can't change a destination, alternate, or launch an aircraft without the company's authorization (except in an emergency). However, the dispatcher should understand that issues may exist beyond the scope of what the dispatcher can see or do, and that the PIC may need to deviate from that operational control to meet the need of the situation or emergency (which you've alluded to). What it comes down to is 91.3:

I agree 100% with this, though neither you or I (as the F/O) are the final authority.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, or say that dispatchers are unnecessary. I'm simply saying that overstepping your responsibility or authority, if you're not the PIC, is a slippery slope. This is from someone who flies the line for a living. There is a whole lot of gray that exists outside scheduled domestic ops (and even a lot that exists in it).
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I agree completely that PIC authority has been "eroded". The age of the skygods are over. The unchallengable authority of the captain is an old concept. The problem that has arisen, and dealing with upwards of 20 crews a day you get the feeling that some of these folks don't need to be in that seat and need hands held, is some captains don't want the repsonsibility that comes with the decision making authority. I'm sure you've flown with a captain you thought shouldn't be sitting in that seat. I'd venture to say this percentage, however small, is the reason that many feel the PIC authority has been "eroded". They make a bad decision, often repeatedly, and so the FAA/airline institutes a new policy that decisions of same magnitude must be run through another person.

I'll admit, I have a jaded opinion... having been thrown under the mains by a "captain" because he/she was questioned on a decision he/she made. More than once a "dispatcher authorized it" was the answer... only to find that, no, a dispatcher didn't authorize diverting 20 minutes out of the way and flying a couple low passes over your home airport (ferry flight). Ironically, the captain was only downgraded for about 8 months, the F/O was terminated (apparently he didn't emphasize to the captain that this was a bad idea???).

So, it's not nearly rare enough situations similar to the above that have caused either FAA or air carriers to make changes to the idea of "final authority". I also think a strong point is that the good dispatchers out there take responsibility for the flights under their watch, whether by FAR or by personality. We don't want you overburning and needing a fuel stop because that direct accepted now puts you into a jet stream, or the continuing the direct that has you to flying toward that line of airplane killing thunderstorms you were originally routed around. So, many of us are there to with the goal of saving you from yourself. We're not always right, but then again neither is the captain. Hence the "joint authority" concept.. 2 heads better than one.

So, when we, as a dispatch group, question the decision of the flight crew we usually have a damn good reason for it... and not just because it's our job to keep the crews from making bad decisions... or correcting bad decisions already made.

and finally, my employer has a little blurb in the FOM:


JOINT AUTHORITY ENROUTE
After a flight has originated, this joint responsibility and agreement continues in the form of the flight release and any amendments thereto, until the flight arrives at destination.
Should changing enroute conditions prevent the flight from being conducted in accordance with the flight release document, the one (Captain or Flight Dispatcher) first encountering or learning of
the changed conditions must contact the other to institute the necessary amendment to the flight release so that they will remain in agreement.

CAPTAIN COMMAND AUTHORITY
The Captain is in command of the aircraft and crew from the time of block-out until block-in at the next point of landing. He is responsible for and the final authority as to, the operation of the aircraft and crew. He is expected to use proper judgment at all times to ensure the safe conduct of the flight.
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I think it pretty well describes the way we look at things.
 
manniax said:
My problem was that, even after hearing the facts (crew had only been on duty for three hours, had started in the middle of the day) you still sided with the captain by bringing up the "physically demanding" nature of flying. Yes, perhaps it sucks that the crew had to do a swap when they were planning to go get food - but I don't think that it was an excuse to take a delay. That being said, nowhere in the original post did it say the dispatcher told the crew they couldn't go get food, either...

As far as observing more, I do try and observe flights in different areas that I dispatch (so far I've done domestic a few times, Europe twice, Mexico once, Carribean once, and Hawaii last year) but I only go observe and ride up front when I am getting compensated for it. The company does give me some extra days for observing long haul flights, but once a year is all they pay me for. I'm sure that if you were required to observe a shift in SOCC, you'd want to be compensated for your time as well. Still, having been doing this job over 15 years, I've observed cockpit ops many times, at many different airlines, and I know it can be challenging! However I don't think it's "physically demanding" on the level of doing something like construction or landscaping.
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Hey there Manniax,
Have to laugh at the postings on here about fatigue and who's job is more physically demanding. I remember when I was a line mechanic being forced on a road trip(along with 2 other guys) after already working 8 hrs to change an engine on a DC-9 in the driving rain no less. By the time I got done I was literally seeing double I was so tired. I sit behind a desk now but got me to thinking about duty limitations for all us certifcated airman. Dispatchers per FAR 121.465 basically after 10 hrs of work have to be afforded at least 8 hrs rest. Pilots per FAR 121.377 have similar duty and rest restrictions. Now take a look at FAR 121.377 as it relates to mechanics..
Sec. 121.377 — Maintenance and preventive maintenance personnel duty time limitations.

Within the United States, each certificate holder (or person performing maintenance or preventive maintenance functions for it) shall relieve each person performing maintenance or preventive maintenance from duty for a period of at least 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days, or the equivalent thereof within any one calendar month.

Pretty broad limits here. I know this is not related to the topic at hand just that the pilots and dispatchers on this thread are banging each other about safety and I think this is major in my opinion. Whether it can be proven or not I can go back in history and show all of you plenty of smoking craters that can be attributed to maintenance or lack therof. Sorry to hijack your thread. Probably why I have been trying to get out MX and into DX....
 
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