well...i did it...

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
There are workarounds to instruction in experimentals. I am not sure of the specifics but there are several people that offer transition training for RVs and often insurance companies require it. This was something EAA lobbied for. I believe it involves a billing structure where you are paying solely for the instructor's time, with the airplane being comped. So instead of paying $60/hr for the instructor and $150/hr for the plane, you just pay $210 for the instructor.
It's not a workaround. You need a Letter of Deviation Authority from your FSDO to be able to provide transition training.
 

Inverted25

Well-Known Member
There are workarounds to instruction in experimentals. I am not sure of the specifics but there are several people that offer transition training for RVs and often insurance companies require it. This was something EAA lobbied for. I believe it involves a billing structure where you are paying solely for the instructor's time, with the airplane being comped. So instead of paying $60/hr for the instructor and $150/hr for the plane, you just pay $210 for the instructor.
No such work around. You can get a letter form the FSDO that allows limited instruction for things such as transition training to that make model etc. You can’t start giving tailwheel endorsements in a RV though for example.


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USMCmech

Well-Known Member
You can’t start charging to give tailwheel endorsements in a RV though for example.
FIFY

You can give a TW endorsement in a RV-8 if you have one. You just can't charge for it.

I have no desire to put my plane out for rental, but I do have a few buddies who want to get their TW sign off. As long as you're not holding out to the general public it's fine.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
FIFY

You can give a TW endorsement in a RV-8 if you have one. You just can't charge for it.

I have no desire to put my plane out for rental, but I do have a few buddies who want to get their TW sign off. As long as you're not holding out to the general public it's fine.
just tell me when and where and I’ll be there
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
The LODA is required if you want to give instruction to a paying customer in your EAB, but it's not required to receive instruction in your EAB from an instructor you pay for service. In your case, you can find someone who has the aerobatic skills you want, and have them fly with you in your plane. Frankly, they don't even need to be a CFI since you don't need formal instruction.
The problem I do have is putting an instructor there with me, I'm severely weight-limited on fuel I can carry and still being within certified aerobatic weight. I realize "certified" is a gray area in the EAB world, but that's something I will ease into.
The aerobatic weight isn't a certification issue, it's a limitation determined by the manufacturer, and the airplane must be operated according to its Operating Limits. In the case of EAB, the manufacturer is the builder. As the builder, I can establish whatever limit I want for gross weight, aerobatic weight, approved maneuvers, Vno, etc. I can follow Van's recommended values or set my own based on engineering or my own imagination. The DPE won't make me defend my values, he just makes sure I have established them as part of the Operating Limits. Several guys in my chapter increased their max gross weight so they could carry more than Van recommends, and the DPEs didn't even blink. However, once I've established those limits and they become part of my Operating Limits, they are extremely difficult to change. In your case, you pretty much have to live with whatever the builder established.

If you go down to Warrenton and fly in the aero box, you could get by with a minimum VFR reserve plus whatever you need for the flight. The box is directly above the traffic pattern, and Culpeper is only 8 miles away as a divert if something happened to close the HWY runway, so I'd personally be comfortable landing with a 30 min reserve. VFR reserve would be about 4-5 gals, so if you can manage an instructor plus an additional 4-5 gals you'll have plenty of instruction time for aerobatics. Frankly, until you get used to it, 30 mins of aerobatics is enough. Also, remember that you can take off above the aerobatic weight limit. You could plan to use a couple gallons for start, taxi, takeoff and climb, then arrive in the box at your aero GW and start your maneuvers.

If you have trouble with being over your aerobatic weight limit with an instructor on board, you could increase the envelop by temporarily reducing the weight of your plane. For example, you could remove the wheel pants, gear leg fairings and intersection fairings on one or all of your three gear. (Lots of guys fly in this configuration during their engine break-in because they reduce the cruise speed by 15 kts, and the added drag allows them to run a higher MP setting.) I just built my wheel pants and they're about 3 lbs each (unpainted). The gear leg fairings and intersection fairing are probably 2 pounds for each set (yours are different than my RV-8's, so that's a guess). They should have a wood form inside that provides a transition from your round gear leg to the airfoil fairing, but are otherwise pretty light. There should be a piano hinge on the trailing edge, and once you get the wheel pant and intersection fairing off, you should be able to pull the pin and remove the leg fairing. (Look at the gear fairing drawings and you see how they are supposed to be installed.) If you have interior padding/carpet, you could remove that as well.

All of that should gain you enough allowance to carry a right-sized instructor, a VFR reserve, and enough gas for a short lesson. If none of those ideas give you enough margin, may I suggest a juice fast? ;)

BTW, if you don't have a set of RV-6 plans, you can get a USB stick from Van's for $10, or you go the paper route and get the preview plans for $55. The preview plans have all the written instructions, and drawings on 11 x 17" paper folded into the notebook. I have both plus full size drawings (24 x 36"). I've had a few of the Optional Plans printed full-size at Staples/Office Depot for a few dollars each. I find the electronic plans to be really helpful when I'm searching for a part number or component name. Since you aren't building, I think the 11 x 17" drawings will be plenty large enough to help you maintain your plane.

 
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killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
If you have trouble with being over your aerobatic weight limit with an instructor on board, you could increase the envelop by temporarily reducing the weight of your plane. For example, you could remove the wheel pants, gear leg fairings and intersection fairings on one or all of your three gear. (Lots of guys fly in this configuration during their engine break-in because they reduce the cruise speed by 15 kts, and the added drag allows them to run a higher MP setting.) I just built my wheel pants and they're about 3 lbs each (unpainted). The gear leg fairings and intersection fairing are probably 2 pounds for each set (yours are different than my RV-8's, so that's a guess). They should have a wood form inside that provides a transition from your round gear leg to the airfoil fairing, but are otherwise pretty light. There should be a piano hinge on the trailing edge, and once you get the wheel pant and intersection fairing off, you should be able to pull the pin and remove the leg fairing. (Look at the gear fairing drawings and you see how they are supposed to be installed.) If you have interior padding/carpet, you could remove that as well.
Unfortunately, I'd have to shed a lot more weight than that. EW is 1116. Ops limitation on aerobatics is 1375. I'm 180 on a light day. As you can see there, I'm over aerobatic weight even with a "light" instructor on board and zero fuel.

I've talked to a couple of the other -6A guys who have CS props and O-360s - I'm in the ballpark for empty weight on this airplane. It's something I didn't give enough consideration to when I bought it, but it's not that big of a deal. There are several options I'm considering that will both lighten the plane and increase its capabilities (different panel, switch to an EarthX or Shorai lithium battery, etc) but I'm not there yet.
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, I'd have to shed a lot more weight than that. EW is 1116. Ops limitation on aerobatics is 1375. I'm 180 on a light day. As you can see there, I'm over aerobatic weight even with a "light" instructor on board and zero fuel.

I've talked to a couple of the other -6A guys who have CS props and O-360s - I'm in the ballpark for empty weight on this airplane. It's something I didn't give enough consideration to when I bought it, but it's not that big of a deal. There are several options I'm considering that will both lighten the plane and increase its capabilities (different panel, switch to an EarthX or Shorai lithium battery, etc) but I'm not there yet.
You're EW isn't bad, but I didn't realize the Aero GW was so low on the -6. I guess that's one of the items that led to the RV-7, with its Aero GW of 1600 lbs. Shedding enough weight to allow two person aerobatics will be mighty challenging given your figures, and the options you mentioned will only be a couple points. Even something dramatic like replacing your prop to a lightweight composite will have more effect on lightening your wallet than your EW. You might just have to admit that this is a one-person aerobatic plane, and enjoy it for what it was designed to be: a RV-3 that carries a passenger by your side.

You might check with one of the RV transition guys and see if they do aerobatic instruction in a 7 or 8. I know there's a handful of those folks, but I don't know if they do (or can) provide aerobatic instruction as part of a transition course. Otherwise you could look for aerobatic instruction in something with similar characteristics to the RV -- something slick where you have to manage energy on the down lines. At least that would expand your skills in a safer way than venturing into it solo.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
You're EW isn't bad, but I didn't realize the Aero GW was so low on the -6. I guess that's one of the items that led to the RV-7, with its Aero GW of 1600 lbs. Shedding enough weight to allow two person aerobatics will be mighty challenging given your figures, and the options you mentioned will only be a couple points. Even something dramatic like replacing your prop to a lightweight composite will have more effect on lightening your wallet than your EW. You might just have to admit that this is a one-person aerobatic plane, and enjoy it for what it was designed to be: a RV-3 that carries a passenger by your side.
Yeah, that's pretty much where I am on it and I'm okay with that. I bought this airplane as an economical, fast, fun, XC-timebuilder. In that order. I'm really more interested in upgrading my panel right now than doing any significant acro. I've got one of the few RVs (apparently) with a detailed PoH that specs the weights/speeds for maneuver types, which I thought was cool. Previous owner didn't do any acro, so this plane hasn't done much of that at all.

Like you said, once the certification/ops limitations have been done, that's the boat you're in. I've found it more than a little interesting (and I'm sure you and I have read the same things on VAF) that the builder could certify well over the recommended value (in this case, my max gross is 1800, not 1650) but cert the aerobatic value at recommended. (And the max gross 1800 for RV6As is really, really common with the O-360.)

You might check with one of the RV transition guys and see if they do aerobatic instruction in a 7 or 8. I know there's a handful of those folks, but I don't know if they do (or can) provide aerobatic instruction as part of a transition course. Otherwise you could look for aerobatic instruction in something with similar characteristics to the RV -- something slick where you have to manage energy on the down lines. At least that would expand your skills in a safer way than venturing into it solo.
I've had a bit of aero training already (in Citabrias/Decathlons) and aside from basic "gentleman's" aerobatics, it's not that much of a priority. My hangar neighbor has a Super D and has offered some training, and another guy at VKX has an RV7 but I don't know if he does any aero. I'll definitely go fly some acro with other people as the opportunities arise and if I get some proficiency in basics I'll be comfortable with that. It's a nice to have, y'know?
 

Space Monkey

Well-Known Member
Nice choice, even with a nosewheel.

In my experience, the maneuverability of it becomes a challenge when flying IFR. Unless you have a good autopilot, be prepared for a lot of scanning and rapid inputs to maintain attitude.

Don't forget to get a couple of parachutes and some aerobatic training. Maybe even fly a primary contest. It can be fun.

As the Norwegians say, "Det er ikke noe som heter sterk kaffe, bare svake menn!"

Same applies to flying maneuverable aircraft via instruments.
 

Space Monkey

Well-Known Member
The LODA is required if you want to give instruction to a paying customer in your EAB, but it's not required to receive instruction in your EAB from an instructor you pay for service. In your case, you can find someone who has the aerobatic skills you want, and have them fly with you in your plane. Frankly, they don't even need to be a CFI since you don't need formal instruction.


The aerobatic weight isn't a certification issue, it's a limitation determined by the manufacturer, and the airplane must be operated according to its Operating Limits. In the case of EAB, the manufacturer is the builder. As the builder, I can establish whatever limit I want for gross weight, aerobatic weight, approved maneuvers, Vno, etc. I can follow Van's recommended values or set my own based on engineering or my own imagination. The DPE won't make me defend my values, he just makes sure I have established them as part of the Operating Limits. Several guys in my chapter increased their max gross weight so they could carry more than Van recommends, and the DPEs didn't even blink. However, once I've established those limits and they become part of my Operating Limits, they are extremely difficult to change. In your case, you pretty much have to live with whatever the builder established.

If you go down to Warrenton and fly in the aero box, you could get by with a minimum VFR reserve plus whatever you need for the flight. The box is directly above the traffic pattern, and Culpeper is only 8 miles away as a divert if something happened to close the HWY runway, so I'd personally be comfortable landing with a 30 min reserve. VFR reserve would be about 4-5 gals, so if you can manage an instructor plus an additional 4-5 gals you'll have plenty of instruction time for aerobatics. Frankly, until you get used to it, 30 mins of aerobatics is enough. Also, remember that you can take off above the aerobatic weight limit. You could plan to use a couple gallons for start, taxi, takeoff and climb, then arrive in the box at your aero GW and start your maneuvers.

If you have trouble with being over your aerobatic weight limit with an instructor on board, you could increase the envelop by temporarily reducing the weight of your plane. For example, you could remove the wheel pants, gear leg fairings and intersection fairings on one or all of your three gear. (Lots of guys fly in this configuration during their engine break-in because they reduce the cruise speed by 15 kts, and the added drag allows them to run a higher MP setting.) I just built my wheel pants and they're about 3 lbs each (unpainted). The gear leg fairings and intersection fairing are probably 2 pounds for each set (yours are different than my RV-8's, so that's a guess). They should have a wood form inside that provides a transition from your round gear leg to the airfoil fairing, but are otherwise pretty light. There should be a piano hinge on the trailing edge, and once you get the wheel pant and intersection fairing off, you should be able to pull the pin and remove the leg fairing. (Look at the gear fairing drawings and you see how they are supposed to be installed.) If you have interior padding/carpet, you could remove that as well.

All of that should gain you enough allowance to carry a right-sized instructor, a VFR reserve, and enough gas for a short lesson. If none of those ideas give you enough margin, may I suggest a juice fast? ;)

BTW, if you don't have a set of RV-6 plans, you can get a USB stick from Van's for $10, or you go the paper route and get the preview plans for $55. The preview plans have all the written instructions, and drawings on 11 x 17" paper folded into the notebook. I have both plus full size drawings (24 x 36"). I've had a few of the Optional Plans printed full-size at Staples/Office Depot for a few dollars each. I find the electronic plans to be really helpful when I'm searching for a part number or component name. Since you aren't building, I think the 11 x 17" drawings will be plenty large enough to help you maintain your plane.

Hmmm... things must have changed..

As far as I've been aware, if one was a brave CFI, one could always instruct in an experimental build by an owner. You know, teach the experimental owner in his own airplane. Hell, if you had lots of experience and knowledge and were even braver, you could take out the owner's new contraption and fly off the test hours for him.

But you could never offer training to the PUBLIC in an experimental. In other words, you couldn't buy a bunch of experimentals and put 'em on the line at your flight school.

I do believe now there is a sliver of an exception in the SLSA (special light sport aircraft), but other than that, unless something has changed most dramatically, instruction may not be offered to the general public in an experimental aircraft.

Who knows, though... Crazy gonna crazy, and I've kinda, sorta given up giving a rat's ass about trying so hard to do the right thing, to make the industry a better place, or to try to determine just what the hell the FAA is thinking... or if they are even thinking at all.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Hmmm... things must have changed..

As far as I've been aware, if one was a brave CFI, one could always instruct in an experimental build by an owner. You know, teach the experimental owner in his own airplane. Hell, if you had lots of experience and knowledge and were even braver, you could take out the owner's new contraption and fly off the test hours for him.

But you could never offer training to the PUBLIC in an experimental. In other words, you couldn't buy a bunch of experimentals and put 'em on the line at your flight school.

I do believe now there is a sliver of an exception in the SLSA (special light sport aircraft), but other than that, unless something has changed most dramatically, instruction may not be offered to the general public in an experimental aircraft.

Who knows, though... Crazy gonna crazy, and I've kinda, sorta given up giving a rat's ass about trying so hard to do the right thing, to make the industry a better place, or to try to determine just what the hell the FAA is thinking... or if they are even thinking at all.
Your understanding is correct. The issue is whether or not an EAB owner could hold out for instruction in an EAB. They cannot, but with a LODA they can give very specific transition training in their own aircraft. Training someone else in their aircraft is fine.

The SLSA thing was the basis for the flight school that Chris Dupin started a couple years ago - he'd gotten the business model to work in the certificated version of the RV-12 before he was killed.
 
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