Weather Radar Techniques

Re: Weather WX Techniques

seagull said:
OK, you already pointed out a couple of Trammel's idiotic ideas.
Gwinn only recently joined Honeywell. Before that he was TWA, originally Ozark. Additionally, he is a great story teller, knows how to put things in a useable format (divide altitude by four and other trammelisms that are not realistic in a real world environment, will not be found) and puts on a very entertaining presentation that is not hard to remember. There is more, but this might give you a place to start.
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And....Gwinn was the kind of kid that his parents didn't want him to play with.

I was 'sponsored' by Honeywell for 18 years, operating individually, then 'under contract' for 7 years, titled "Consultant" to the Systems Training Division. I elected not to renew that contract in Mar, 2006. I'd taught Airborne Radar on 4 continents, 15 countries, 6 trips to So. Korea for the Army.....and I was tired of riding. Had a 'body guard' in one trip to Honduras, one trip without; should have had one in Panama.

Honeywell was very good to me. However, Rockwell-Collins ALSO produces superior radars, and we have them in the presentation. We did NOT 'sell' radars. Collins was complimented and their system explained. What good would it do to 'sell', destroy confidence in a competitor's radar.....which the pilot couldn't change...and call it an education? They both make great radars; there are DIFFERENCES, and need to be understood.

I was ALWAYS 'TWA', not Ozark (great guys!!) and spent 11 years in the TWA Pilot Training Center teaching and video taping, including later teaching in the simulators. FAA Examiner for our new-hire F/Es: "The only seat on the airplane that faces sideways and doesn't flush."
 
Wow... the man him self. Welcome. We got a hand out in ground school that you did at some point and it was about the most helpful thing I have seen re: radar usage.
 
Re: Weather WX Techniques

wheelsup said:
EDITed to add: I just read thru a 5 page article by Gwinn. He apparently works for Honeywell now, and has the same recommendations that Archie has regarding tilting technique (which is mostly what I am posting about). He disagrees with Archie in regards to using the RADAR as a tool to navigate or map terrain, but that doesn't have anything to do with operating the RADAR as a weather RADAR.

The most significant difference I saw was that he recommends a spread of 18,000 - 25,000 as the "meat of the storm" (probably why the Honeywell information I had recommended that) while Archie uses a flat base line of 25,000.
Same here :D!
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That article was written years ago and needs to be updated. I disagree with Mr. Trammell in many more areas that you cite. Honeywell Pilot Guides state 18-to-25 because "I wrote them" (and then the engineers 'edited' things their way..... would-be journalists with a slide-rule:)) Seriously,they do great work, and 'legal liability' has to be considered in any such document in print. The 660-880 has been applauded as one of the best guides in the business.

FL250 is too high. Remember you have a 'rain (water) detector'; icing, snow and small hail each is a terrible return. FL250 is probably above the freezing level. Also bear-in-mind that what you are seeing is "the strength of the updraft" that can hold that amount of water uplifted and suspended for your evaluation. At 18-to-25 (max) you've confirmed 'convection', evaluated the updraft (colors), have seen the effects of the 500mb winds (18) and the characteristics of the 'echo'.
 
Holy crap it's Dave Gwinn! I've been reading you column in Plane and Pilot for years. In fact it's probably the only reason I still have a subscription.
 
Wow I'm honored to be on the same forum as you. As being one of the lucky piston freight dawgs to have radar equiped aircraft I'm constantly trying to learn tricks and techniques as our training was ATs video which I also saw in college and left me seeking more. Thank you for your contributions to the industry and I hope you find jetcareers a place for you to share your knowledge in the future.
 
Welcome Dave, glad you've joined us. You'll recognize T Grayson from old avsig days as well, I think. This place is a lot like Avsig was, back in the day.

As an aside, I really enjoyed your "Airways and Airwaves" book, by the way!
 
Welcome indeed David! Hope you'll stay and enjoy yourself here. You're going to be a valuable asset to the JC team that's for sure!
 
Dave, you should see if you can talk Wally Roberts into joining here. Maybe make some remark about a lady you know or something...;)
 
Captain_Bob said:
Wow... Hi David! Thanks so much for coming on here and giving us your perspective!! :)

Bob
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Holy cow!

Had I known, I would have worked out some sort of introduction! :)

Welcome!

I was just working on the distance learning DVD for 767 school about weather radars and turbulence avoidance in the ICTZ.
 
Holy Cow! Welcome aboard.:nana2:

Doug, can we get Mr. Gwinn his own section. I would have to say radar useage is the least taught and one of the most misunderstood items by pilots.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I was just working on the distance learning DVD for 767 school about weather radars and turbulence avoidance in the ICTZ.
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Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ) you mean? Not meaning to call you out cause the ICTZ could be something that deals with another part of this world.
 
wheelsup said:
Just curious how those out there (121 pilots [CA and FO], freight, corporate, etc) use and/or are taught how to use airborne weather radar.

Did your inital training touch on the subject/did you get handouts from your company?
How do you use the tilt?
How do you use the gain?
What is your general concept behind using it?

I recently met a CA who had the other half of the handbook I had been using and it basically put two puzzle pieces together. As crazy as it sounds, this was the first CA to fully utilize/understand the methods I had been attempting (I didn't fully understand what I was doing, the handbook was very "engineer" written) over the past year of line flying.

Just trying to start some educational discussion here.
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One word baby- ARCHIE!
 
Well, I got the book and CD for my birthday. Now that my laptop is fixed and I can take it with me on the road, I'll be able to listen to the CD and maybe learn some stuff.
 
kellwolf said:
Well, I got the book and CD for my birthday. Now that my laptop is fixed and I can take it with me on the road, I'll be able to listen to the CD and maybe learn some stuff.
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It starts off kinda slow but it's got some good info in it. It's more well written than AT's stuff, and covers more of the background behind RADAR and how it works compared to what I had. It also brings up some interesting points regarding range.

One thing that sucks about our (CRJ, 10 degree width) RADAR is that you really can't get an *accurate* picture of what is going on until about 30-40 nm out. Anything over that will require you to tilt the RADAR up somewhat above the FL250 level and if you tilt it down it will just get ground returns. Anyone know what the best long-range (say 80-160 nm) defensive/planning technique would be? AT touches on it, I think he says to put the RADAR in what is called "TIP" or "Threat Identification Position". It basically scans from your altitude up, and is +X, X being half the width of the RADAR beam.

I find most guys just tilt it up enough to stop the painting of ground returns but I think that might be an issue as you could miss returns as they get closer due to the beam going over the top of the "meat" of the storm.
 
Peer Pilots:
I haven't browsed the thread recently, but I'm happy to advise any pilot with a radar question. We did a one hour live-conference on ProPilotWorld that many found of value.
Let me know your needs and wishes, and I'll comply.

Kindest regards: Dave Gwinn
 
Plane & Pilot

jtrain609 said:
Holy crap it's Dave Gwinn! I've been reading you column in Plane and Pilot for years. In fact it's probably the only reason I still have a subscription.
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Howdy, me pal:
After 15 years with P&P, the new Editor in his first month decided that Capt. Kevin Garrison and I were 'retired' and therefore, of no value to his publication. He also wanted to replace Bil Cox on all airplane evaluations, but that was shot down, with Bill's 37 years with P&P.

I was invited immediately to write for Flight Training, ASF and IFR, so you'll find me there. Thanks very much for your compliments of my past columns... jeez, there was 180 of them !

Warm regards: Dave Gwinn www.davegwinn.com
 
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