VOR App Straight-In Circle to same runway

GuitarMan

New Member
Heard somebody on the freq request VOR 23 app. circle to 23 (MAP is VOR on the airport);

The tower controller said he couldn't do that; he had to go miss and go back to approach.

My question is whether if circle to the same runway is a good idea for controllers working on IFR sequence.

Thanks.
 

WMostellar

Well-Known Member
My question is whether if circle to the same runway is a good idea for controllers working on IFR sequence.
I'm not a controller, but I did sleep at home last night. :)

I would say as an ignorant pilot that it's not a good idea for two reasons:

  1. The minimums are typically higher for a circling approach than a straight in approach
  2. More airspace must be cleared for a circling approach regardless of the approach/landing runways because of the need to execute the circling maneuver (even if it's the same runway).
As soon as someone more knowledgeable than I (a controller) corrects my information, I will be deleting this post. :)
 

JLF

Well-Known Member
Please fill me in here since I don't know exactly what approach you're referring to, but why on earth would you want to circle anyway in that scenario(when you could use S- mins)?
 

GuitarMan

New Member
Please fill me in here since I don't know exactly what approach you're referring to, but why on earth would you want to circle anyway in that scenario(when you could use S- mins)?
The app was VOR 23 in KAPF, the MDA for S-in and Circle are the same 500'
 

minitour

New Member
Workload permitting, I've done it with students.

The scenario is....they break out too close to the airport to make the runway using "normal maneuvers" (bla bla bla), so they go back up to Circling MDA and circle. Usually I followed that up with "oh no...we re-entered the clouds".

If the controller can't work it, they can't work it.

-mini
 

JLF

Well-Known Member
Workload permitting, I've done it with students.

The scenario is....they break out too close to the airport to make the runway using "normal maneuvers" (bla bla bla), so they go back up to Circling MDA and circle. Usually I followed that up with "oh no...we re-entered the clouds".

If the controller can't work it, they can't work it.

-mini

That sounds like a good cop-out from executing a proper missed approach and hold. I'm gonna' try that one...
 

Clocks

Well-Known Member
Workload permitting, I've done it with students.

The scenario is....they break out too close to the airport to make the runway using "normal maneuvers" (bla bla bla), so they go back up to Circling MDA and circle. Usually I followed that up with "oh no...we re-entered the clouds".

If the controller can't work it, they can't work it.

-mini
Maybe its just been too long...but I dont remember that ever being an option when I was learning. Break out well past the VDP (which is non binding in part 91 I know) so you go to the circling altitude and try to save the landing? Do you teach them to brief it on straight in approaches too, or are they heads down in the plate while they sort of go-around up to circling MDA? I dunno...
 

LarryinTN

Well-Known Member
Please fill me in here since I don't know exactly what approach you're referring to, but why on earth would you want to circle anyway in that scenario(when you could use S- mins)?
Just because the approach design meets the criteria for straight in minimums doesn't mean that the descent gradient required will be acceptable to all aircraft in all situations. In such a case, the circle back to the same runway gives the extra time/distance to descend.
 

FD4life

New Member
My company teaches in IPTP that if the sighting of the runway occurs to late to make the landing using normal manuevers, to climb to circling mins and circle back around and land, even got a profile for it. If it's IFR, no vfr traffic will (should) be taking off. No other IFR traffic can be on the approach if you are. Makes sense to land if you can, instead of going back out to try the approach again, which would give the weather time to go even lower.
 

minitour

New Member
That sounds like a good cop-out from executing a proper missed approach and hold. I'm gonna' try that one...
Nothing to do with a "cop out". You can always execute the "proper" missed approach from the circle, which can be fun.

Maybe its just been too long...but I dont remember that ever being an option when I was learning. Break out well past the VDP (which is non binding in part 91 I know) so you go to the circling altitude and try to save the landing? Do you teach them to brief it on straight in approaches too, or are they heads down in the plate while they sort of go-around up to circling MDA? I dunno...
Pretty much everything gets briefed. I thoroughly enjoyed taking students to do approaches with stuff in the notes that could be missed, only to have them miss the stuff in the notes, and catch them on it. Normally by saying "how'd that cow get into this cloud? Oh...you didn't read the notes.".

Some people are comfy with just knowing the frequency, course, FAF altitude and MDA/DA(H) and first part of the missed procedure. I'm not really one of them.

-mini
 

JLF

Well-Known Member
It does sound like a useful maneuver. I'd just never came across this one before. I'm not that far into my instrument rating, and I definitely don't see it at work.
 

Juliet Lima

New Member
So...to do a circling approach you need to keep the runway circling to in sight at all times right?? If you basically make a 360 on final to the same runway, at some point you will lose sight of the runway? Is this even legal? The bigger the plane the longer you'll lose sight of the runway...unless u have rear looking cameras like my neighbors Mercedes.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.
 
R

Roger, Roger

Guest
There is an exception that says that losing sight because of the aircraft is ok. Really what they are looking for is that once you're out of the clouds, you stay out.
 

braunpilot

What day is it?
Ok, so I have shot VOR circling approaches to mins in the soup and while although it sounds like a decent training technique. You are inviting your student to do something stupid. I am amazed that a company has a SOP profile that allows you to climb to circling mins and execuate an approach to that runway as long as you maintain a visual. Seriously, do not teach your students to descend to straight-in mins and climb up to circling, they will look at the wrong mins and could strike a power line (INSERT LARGE IMOVABLE OBJECT). And I do not think that any of you want the FAA calling. The AF and Navy have it right here....Train like you fight, fight like you train.
 
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