Visual Approach

[seagull]

Another tidbit. An assigned heading from the ATCT may or may not be a vector. Airports with surface radar that have approved ATCT can issue RV's on departure, and they meet all the requirements. Other towers can give you a heading, but that heading does NOT necessarily meet the requirements for a vector (i.e., guaranteeing terrain sep, etc). At those airports, when departing IFR, you are still expected to follow the IDP.

Confused? Welcome to the world of ATC!

 

[wheelsup]

Confused? Welcome to the world of ATC!

What is your opinion on this? I flew with a CA that swore that a heading from the tower could be flown right after t/o (400' per standard departure gradient) and I mentioned that we weren't in radar contact yet, so we still had to follow the obstacle DP/departure chart that specified a turn at XXXX altitude (higher than 400').

I would think the only time one could accept and accomplish a turn is after hearing the words "radar contact, fly heading XXX"

 

[meritflyer]

Where did you come up with that nonsense?

VFR traffic out of KSLC hangs with the tower for atleast 5 min prior to the departure handoff. Maybe you should try it out before you call it nonsense.

 

[meritflyer]

Not always.

Yes, ESF. It appears you would know all but not this time. VFR traffic are always identified "radar contact" when departing the Salt Lake class B. Once again, you should try it out before you post responses to something you know nothing about.

 

[meritflyer]

Granted, when I depart VFR, they hang on to me for a while and the tower calls radar contact. Then the tower keeps me until I cross the Barn (assuming the Barn transition) before handing me off to departure.

Whether its the Barn, I-80 at KSL, or I-15, Salt Lake's tower will identify you "radar contact" and hang on to you for atleast 5 minutes.

If you're blastin' off 16L/R you're probably in something that climbs like a beast and tower doesnt need to worry about you for too long.

 

[asl]

When listening to JFK Tower they only call radar contact on traffic transistioning their Class B airspace, everybody else is recieved from or sent to approach and they never call radar contact.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Yes, ESF. It appears you would know all but not this time. VFR traffic are always identified "radar contact" when departing the Salt Lake class B. Once again, you should try it out before you post responses to something you know nothing about.

This discussion started out about IFR, that's what I was referring to. If you want to warp it to VFR now to make me wrong so you can feel better, have at it.

You said:

You're never handed off to departure until you've been airborne for typically atleast 5 minutes.

And that is nonsense.

You also said:

Atleast where I trained at (KSLC), the tower always says "radar contact".. everytime.

Everytime? No, not every time. VFR maybe, but you didn't say that so how was I supposed to know?

If you're blastin' off 16L/R you're probably in something that climbs like a beast and tower doesnt need to worry about you for too long.

In other words, so much for your "always at least five minutes" theory.

 

[EatSleepFly]

Dunno...when I was training for my PPL in TUS, which is Class C airspace. I'd always hear approach telling the airliners coming in from the east over the Catalina mntns. to turn to heading XXX cleared for approach, radar services terminated contact Tucson tower on XXX.X frequency.

Some better info:

5-1-13. RADAR SERVICE TERMINATION​

a. Inform aircraft when radar service is terminated.​

PHRASEOLOGY-
RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED (nonradar routing if required).​

b. Radar service is automatically terminated and the aircraft needs not be advised of termination when:​

NOTE-
1. Termination of radar monitoring when conducting simultaneous ILS/MLS approaches is prescribed in para 5-9-7, Simultaneous Independent ILS/MLS Approaches- Dual & Triple.

2. Termination of radar monitoring where PAR equipment is used to monitor approaches is prescribed in para 5-13-3, Monitor Information.​

1. An aircraft cancels its IFR flight plan, except within Class B airspace, Class C airspace, TRSA, or where basic radar service is provided.​

2. An aircraft conducting an instrument, visual, or contact approach has landed or has been instructed to change to advisory frequency.​

3. At tower-controlled airports where radar coverage does not exist to within 1/2 mile of the end of the runway, arriving aircraft shall be informed when radar service is terminated.​

[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Radar Tolerances, Para 10-5-6.[/SIZE]​

4. TERMINAL. An arriving VFR aircraft receiving radar service to a tower-controlled airport within Class B airspace, Class C airspace, TRSA, or where basic radar service is provided has landed, or to all other airports, is instructed to change to tower or advisory frequency.​

5. TERMINAL. An aircraft completes a radar approach.​

[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Service Provided When Tower is Inoperative, Para 7-6-12.[/SIZE]


​

[SIZE=-2]
[/SIZE]​

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Some better info:

1. An aircraft cancels its IFR flight plan, except within Class B airspace, Class C airspace, TRSA, or where basic radar service is provided.

That sounds like the reason I would hear:

"American #XXXX cleared visual approach,radar services terminated. Contact KTUS tower on XXX.X.

Thanks Marsh!

 

[Dugie8]

What is your opinion on this? I flew with a CA that swore that a heading from the tower could be flown right after t/o (400' per standard departure gradient) and I mentioned that we weren't in radar contact yet, so we still had to follow the obstacle DP/departure chart that specified a turn at XXXX altitude (higher than 400').

I would think the only time one could accept and accomplish a turn is after hearing the words "radar contact, fly heading XXX"

Two things. First I had a Capt tell me that we could not make any turns before 500' AGL, and I am yet to find a reference to that. Second I remember talking with the tower guys in GFK about turning before a DP altitude and they said that it was cool, you are not going to hit anything since they have a dbright (radar repeater) in the tower. Now, how you would know if the tower giving you the turn has this or not, I don't know, maybe by just the fact they are giving you a turn is a "guarantee" that they have it, but I wouldn't put much stock in that.

 

[PHL_JR]

The reason you get radar ID with some towers is because there are some that are "imited radar" certified. Probably SLC, as previously mentioned, is limited radar certed. I know that PHL is definitely limited radar, for example. Usually, these facilities use radar for VFR only. For IFR, Tower will almost never radar identify an aircraft. A handoff to tower from an approach controller is an indication of terminated radar service.

 

[casey]

Two things. First I had a Capt tell me that we could not make any turns before 500' AGL, and I am yet to find a reference to that. Second I remember talking with the tower guys in GFK about turning before a DP altitude and they said that it was cool, you are not going to hit anything since they have a dbright (radar repeater) in the tower. Now, how you would know if the tower giving you the turn has this or not, I don't know, maybe by just the fact they are giving you a turn is a "guarantee" that they have it, but I wouldn't put much stock in that.

If im IMC i wont make the turn prior to our single engine acceleration height and wont make a turn before a 10-9 obstacle departure/10-3 departure unless i've heard the magic words "radar contact". In VMC and with visual contact with terrain/obstacles i'll make the turn when i feel appropriate.

VFR traffic out of KSLC hangs with the tower for atleast 5 min prior to the departure handoff. Maybe you should try it out before you call it nonsense.

whens the last time you were cleared for the visual while VFR? i think we all assumed this was an IFR discussion based on the thread title.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Even though it's called a "visual approach" I still believe it is an IFR approach!

 

[casey]

Even though it's called a "visual approach" I still believe it is an IFR approach!

exactly my point, a visual approach is an instrument clearance.

 

[Persian_Pilot]

Salt Lake International does it all day long. As soon as you're about 300' AGL or so, climbing on rwy heading, tower always says "radar contact, turn right to the ______ (transition)" You're never handed off to departure until you've been airborne for typically atleast 5 minutes.

Yup. I guess they have Radar services or something. Tower: XYZ Say ALT XYZ : Blah Blah Blah Tower: Radar Contact, .....