Violated!

mshunter said:
I was sitting right there when he called, and felt like reaching through the phone and bitch slapping him. The thing is, w/out looking through the dam code book, I never found the regulation, untill it was posted here.
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Or, you might have taken the phone and apologized to the guy, who might have let the matter drop after letting off a little bit of steam. A conciliatory attitude can go a long way to deflect the forces of justice.
 
tgrayson said:
Or, you might have taken the phone and apologized to the guy, who might have let the matter drop after letting off a little bit of steam. A conciliatory attitude can go a long way to deflect the forces of justice.
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Andyou see this is my delima. Do I take the chance of calling him back, and being sorry, or do I not act, and see where it goes. I feel like it's a damned if I do, and a damned if I don't situation. He called asking who was the pilot of the airplane, and the office girl told him she would get back to him, not knowing if she could release the information. I have his PH number, and am debating on weather or not to call him back. We have people go out there all the time, and have never heard anything.
 
tgrayson said:
Or, you might have taken the phone and apologized to the guy, who might have let the matter drop after letting off a little bit of steam. A conciliatory attitude can go a long way to deflect the forces of justice.
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I busted trenton airspace with an intro flight on day a long time ago. I landed, called them up, and apologized. The controller said, "hold on let me check...well we didn't have to vector traffic for you, you were lucky today." I thanked him and that was that.

Of course I have also been nice to cops that pulled me over and in the process wound up with 2 tickets instead of one. So good luck. :)
 
You want to confess to what may or may not be a crime to what certainly is a law enforcement officer? That would be the easiest way to get charged with a crime.

Right now he doesn't know:
1) Who was flying the plane
2) Whether or not it was ACTUALLY flying lower than proscribed in whatever federal law, merely that to him it looked like it was flying too low.

I mean... he is a park ranger but he also has to be somewhat busy, it would take a lot of work to find out #1 and then to confirm #2, if even possible from ATC depending on radar coverage, and you want to do all this for him?

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mshunter said:
Do I take the chance of calling him back, and being sorry, or do I not act, and see where it goes.
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Personally, I would advocate calling him; otherwise, you're really going to be wired over the next few weeks, waiting for a phone call from "somebody". I don't envy that.

The guy almost has to think highly of you if you call to confess and say you won't ever do it again.
 
Found it. Could be written warning, up to $10,000 dollars. I think I'll call the guy, and explain to him what it says on the chart, and that I had no clue, and will not venture out that way again. Wish me luck, I'll post back here tomorow on what happens.
 
mshunter said:
Found it. Could be written warning, up to $10,000 dollars. I think I'll call the guy, and explain to him what it says on the chart, and that I had no clue, and will not venture out that way again. Wish me luck, I'll post back here tomorow on what happens.
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Good luck. Can you reference the law here for everyone else's edification?
 
mshunter said:
Found it. Could be written warning, up to $10,000 dollars. I think I'll call the guy, and explain to him what it says on the chart, and that I had no clue, and will not venture out that way again. Wish me luck, I'll post back here tomorow on what happens.
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Yea good luck, I would advise against calling them. That is giving him everything he needs to do something. Without you telling him, it is a lot of work for him to find out who those "darn kids are flying around my precious islands!"
 
crazyjaydawg said:
Yea good luck, I would advise against calling them. That is giving him everything he needs to do something. Without you telling him, it is a lot of work for him to find out who those "darn kids are flying around my precious islands!"
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Do the people that are responsible for that aircraft have to give up the info? Or would the Ranger have to get a warrant? I don't want my work to come under fire for this.
 
I would get your chief pilot to call him back - ask his concerns, feel him out before giving out any information. I would your CP would be very diplomatic and assure him you will make this a training exercise and bring it to the attention of follow pilots in the next AOPA meeting as the information isn't clear on sectional charts. If you try and man handle these guys they will screw you 6 ways to China - if you play nice, you will likely be able to put this behing you in under 6 minutes!
 
mshunter said:
So the next question is, do I call this guy back, and play stupid, or do I refuse to contact him, and tell the office the same, and see what happens.....

I don't want to call this guy up, so he knows who to issue the violation to...
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If it were up to me I WOULD NOT call him back. I had an issue a year ago to where I called for a flight brief and was told that a certain Restricted airspace was cold and I was able to fly through it. Well I did and was told to call the controlling agency when I landed. Well stupid me, I did and told him everything of how I went through the proper channels and did not see anything was wrong on my part. Well to make a long story short I had to obtain a lawyer and my lawyer told me that I had made his job extremely difficult because I pretty much admitted guilt by calling him back and giving him all the information that he wanted. He said if that ever happens again and they really need to talk to you then they will contact you via certified mail. You are not obligated to return phone calls or inquiries from anyone. If he ends up calling you, tell him to talk to your lawyer and you have nothing to say. I learned my lesson by trying to explain my way out of something that I didn't think I did anything wrong and ended up getting violated for it because I talked. That was legal advice from my personal aviation attorney in my case, so if I were in your position I would just go about my day and try not to worry about it.

Hope this helps!
 
1. Everyone is making the assumption that the Ranger is a dirtbag. May or may not be. He may have been calling to let you know that you need to stay farther away. Just because he saw something that concerned him and tracked down the airplane makes him a dirtbag??
2. Not sure what is better... blowing him off and hoping he drops it, or contacting him and being contrite. Personally, I'm the type to call him. You did in fact mess up by flying too low. Not knowing the law is normally not an excuse.
3. Don't know about the non-FAA side, but on the FAA side I know they can go after the owner of the airplane if he/she won't give up the actual pilot. I'll try to see if I can dig up the court case. It was several years ago.
 
If you call him, tell him the purpose of the flight -- taking pictures -- and say that you weren't aware of the necessities for getting a permit. That sounds better, because it gives a somewhat legitimate reason for your incursion.
 
You broke no FAR. If you did break some joke state law then you are innocent until proven guilty. The police wouldn't waste their time on this and a park ranger has no power. Don't confess to anything.

When people call in asking to speak with the pilots that are making all the noise I always reply; 'We do not release private information on our pilots. If you would like to make a complaint then contact the FAA.' I had one guy tell me he was a cop and I simply replied 'I have no way to verify you are who you say you are over the telephone, please come in with a search warrent, proper ID and I will show you any records you would like.' I never saw him.

Your school is not required to give any information over the telephone to anyone, security goes two ways.

The only way you will get in trouble is if you confess.
 
mshunter said:
Found it. Could be written warning, up to $10,000 dollars. I think I'll call the guy, and explain to him what it says on the chart, and that I had no clue, and will not venture out that way again. Wish me luck, I'll post back here tomorow on what happens.
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This is probably the best thing you can do.

If it doesn't work at least you can say you took responsibility for it.
 
I know exactly what you are talking about. I have dealt with flying around the islands and with the rangers before. Many of them think they know FAA regulations. For instance, Channel Islands Aviation is the only company that can legally land an aircraft on the Channel Islands. They have an exclusive contract with the forest service and fly them to and from the island. Many rangers think that because if this no one else is even allowed to overfly the islands. They also misunderstand the flotation device rule and take the requested 2000' as regulation.

The Van Nuys FSDO is notoriously brutal. God help you if Volker gets word!

Edit: Just read some recent posts and it sounds like the FAA is the least of your worry's. Changed some of my previous statements. HaHa
 
Just ask a lawyer. AOPA legal can help or an aviation lawyer somewhere. Like someone else said, have them come to the school with the proper paperwork instead of giving out info over the phone. Have the Chief remind them he is running a business and will only give out the information when legally required to protect his customers. Chances are the ranger wont do anything except say, "don't do it again".
 
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