VFR in IFR conditions

bLizZuE said:
Yes. I do. When I'm at one end of a runway that's less than a mile, and I can't see the end of it, I don't have to be Einstien to add 2 and 2 together.

Good to see this simple observation turned into the usual pissing contest.
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Your original post wasn't an observation it was you mad because you dont seem to know the FAR's. In further posts you even said you should have got the tail numbers and reported it. That's the kind of heat no pilot needs without doing anything wrong. It's one thing to have an opinion that the pilots were unsafe or even stupid, but you came off like you wanted to to revoke licenses over a non issue.
 
Hey, I might be with him there!! If the pilot shortage won't show up by itself we'll have to make it show up!! One revocation at a time!!! :bandit::pirate:
:sarcasm: *obviously*
 
bLizZuE said:
Yes. I do. When I'm at one end of a runway that's less than a mile, and I can't see the end of it, I don't have to be Einstien to add 2 and 2 together.

Good to see this simple observation turned into the usual pissing contest.
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Not necessarily, midfield there could be a reduction in vis, or the weather could be changing at such a rate that by the time you went to depart the visibility was below 1SM, and at one end it could be exactly a mile, or some other combination therein, regardless, he didn't break any laws, provided that from his seat at the exact time he was flying, the average flight visibility was one statute mile or greater. Call the feds, and unless the guy is a complete idiot what's he going to say anyway? "At the time of my departure from KXYZ, the average in flight visibility from the cockpit was 1SM." At that point there is exactly nothing that the Feds can do about it because the ASOS was out of service. So even if he blasted off zero-zero without filing, there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

You're going to jump down this guy's throat when you appear to have blasted off IFR in a single on this same flight? You want to talk risk management? Where's the difference? So you're flying a departure procedure, if you lose you're motor at 200' you're just as screwed as he is. Another question for you (and maybe you posted it already) was the obscuration due to ground fog in the vicinity, or was it a solid layer. What I mean is, where did you break out?

Maybe we should reflect on why this is a pissing contest. Why? Because people who weren't in the cockpit with the guy at the time of departure are armchair qb-ing it all the way to the endzone. The simple truth is, you don't know if the guy departed IMC or not. You may think you know, but you weren't there with him in the airplane, so you don't.

Maybe my somewhat virulent response to these sorts of threads is due in part to the "one-size-fits all" attitude among pilots. A sort of "my way or the highway" approach to flying. Flying is very different from place to place, and flying at one edge of the envelope very different that flying at the other. Just because you personally did not approve of the level of safety of his maneuver does not mean that it was conducted in an unsafe manner. Look at the regs. If he departed with a mile of vis, was he legal? Yes. Did he have a mile of vis from the cockpit? No way to know now.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Safety Of Flight!? Oh my. Well, as long as it's For The Children or whatever, I'll happily live in an informant-riddled Surveillance Society! Nevermind! Can we arrange to keep this embarrassing lapse in judgment on my part out of my Stasi file?
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Relax, theres no need to go all tinfoil hat. No matter what the voices tell you I doubt anyone is out to get you, the only microphones are in your airplane and most people who think anyone cares enough to keep a file on them end up sorely disappointed.
 
Inverted said:
Your original post wasn't an observation it was you mad because you dont seem to know the FAR's. In further posts you even said you should have got the tail numbers and reported it. That's the kind of heat no pilot needs without doing anything wrong. It's one thing to have an opinion that the pilots were unsafe or even stupid, but you came off like you wanted to to revoke licenses over a non issue.
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I don't think I was ever mad, and I'm very confident in my knowledge of the FARs. I didn't want anyones license revoked, or anyone in trouble.

Interpretation and perspective are two things you lack.
 
ppragman said:
You're going to jump down this guy's throat when you appear to have blasted off IFR in a single on this same flight? You want to talk risk management? Where's the difference? So you're flying a departure procedure, if you lose you're motor at 200' you're just as screwed as he is. Another question for you (and maybe you posted it already) was the obscuration due to ground fog in the vicinity, or was it a solid layer. What I mean is, where did you break out?

Maybe we should reflect on why this is a pissing contest. Why? Because people who weren't in the cockpit with the guy at the time of departure are armchair qb-ing it all the way to the endzone. The simple truth is, you don't know if the guy departed IMC or not. You may think you know, but you weren't there with him in the airplane, so you don't.

Maybe my somewhat virulent response to these sorts of threads is due in part to the "one-size-fits all" attitude among pilots. A sort of "my way or the highway" approach to flying. Flying is very different from place to place, and flying at one edge of the envelope very different that flying at the other. Just because you personally did not approve of the level of safety of his maneuver does not mean that it was conducted in an unsafe manner. Look at the regs. If he departed with a mile of vis, was he legal? Yes. Did he have a mile of vis from the cockpit? No way to know now.
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Solid layer up to 700, meaning departing without an IFR clearance he would have busted cloud clearance requirements as soon as he entered class E airspace. If he departed with 1 NM flight vis than yes, he was legal to depart. However you can't just say 'Oh it was 1 mile vis' and forget everything else required for that type of departure.

I think you have misunderstood my opinion. I'm sorry for the breakdown in communication however I don't know where it happened. I have no 'holier than thou' mentality and posted this thread to get perspective on the situation. Instead I got a flame war on who knows what better than who.

:insane:
 
boondr said:
I have had a situation as an ATC where I am about 95% sure a VFR 1200 code was flying around in IMC. He buzzed no less than three of my IFR guys and every single one reported solid IMC at same altitude.(Yes this guy was squawking 1200 flying around on a solid IMC day at IFR altitudes) Had one Cape Air flight I had to give a 100 degree turn and immediate climb to because the VFR guy was randomly changing altitudes and directions. The Cape Air came within >1 mile and 400 ft of this "VFR" aircraft and said he NEVER saw a single opening in the clouds. I believe the Cape Air pilot's quote after that was "Thank you and I like to find out who that idiot was"
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I had someone do this to me today... not fun. I know 100% that he was VFR in IMC, because I watched him pop out the top of a solid overcast layer as the controller was pointing him out to us for the 3rd time. :mad:
 
boondr said:
I have had a situation as an ATC where I am about 95% sure a VFR 1200 code was flying around in IMC. He buzzed no less than three of my IFR guys and every single one reported solid IMC at same altitude.(Yes this guy was squawking 1200 flying around on a solid IMC day at IFR altitudes) Had one Cape Air flight I had to give a 100 degree turn and immediate climb to because the VFR guy was randomly changing altitudes and directions. The Cape Air came within >1 mile and 400 ft of this "VFR" aircraft and said he NEVER saw a single opening in the clouds. I believe the Cape Air pilot's quote after that was "Thank you and I like to find out who that idiot was"
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OHHH TEEHHH NOSSSS!!!!! He was greater than 1 mile awayyyyyyyy!!!!








Ha ha....I know what you mean. It just seems funny when you read through your post and get to that point. :D
 
I say do whatever you can to track that plane down and report it to the FAA. Check flight aware. Ask around the FBO. If you have time make a visit to nayboring airports. Morons like that absolutly should NOT be flying. It's your duty to do what you can to keep our skies safe. I personally have called the FAA/NTSB about 4 or 5 times when i've seen something blantantly unsafe. ALso, one more thing to remember, if this guy gets busted and it comes up that you knew about him, but didn't do anything, the FAA may come down on you for being negligent. Just Something to consider...
 
butt said:
I say do whatever you can to track that plane down and report it to the FAA. Check flight aware. Ask around the FBO. If you have time make a visit to nayboring airports. Morons like that absolutly should NOT be flying. It's your duty to do what you can to keep our skies safe. I personally have called the FAA/NTSB about 4 or 5 times when i've seen something blantantly unsafe. ALso, one more thing to remember, if this guy gets busted and it comes up that you knew about him, but didn't do anything, the FAA may come down on you for being negligent. Just Something to consider...
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Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce you to the next Mr. Goldfluss.
 
Stomp16 said:
OHHH TEEHHH NOSSSS!!!!! He was greater than 1 mile awayyyyyyyy!!!!








Ha ha....I know what you mean. It just seems funny when you read through your post and get to that point. :D
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DOH! Yes that is supposed to read <1 mile, (less than)

I actually thought about that old addage taught in grade school "alligator eats the bigger number" and still got it wrong. Once again DOH!
 
butt said:
I say do whatever you can to track that plane down and report it to the FAA. Check flight aware. Ask around the FBO. If you have time make a visit to nayboring airports. Morons like that absolutly should NOT be flying. It's your duty to do what you can to keep our skies safe. I personally have called the FAA/NTSB about 4 or 5 times when i've seen something blantantly unsafe. ALso, one more thing to remember, if this guy gets busted and it comes up that you knew about him, but didn't do anything, the FAA may come down on you for being negligent. Just Something to consider...
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Where in the regs does it say you are supposed to play sky police? Even in the previous situation I relayed, as an ATC I could have easily found out who the pilot was (I watched the aircraft fly to a nearby towered airport, it would have been as simple as calling them and asking for the tail numbers and to have the pilot call us.) I just left well enough alone, I don't know what the exact situation, Maybe his altimeter setting was off and he was 700 ft below and in the clear, who knows. My job isn't to be the sky police I have witnessed plenty of pilot deviations and as long as it didn't result in a loss of separation I just let the pilot know what he needed to do to fix it and that was that, no phone numbers no reports. People make mistakes(especially spelling mistakes;)) if we were all crucified for them we'd all be jobless.
 
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