VFR in IFR conditions

[Crockrocket94]

If its in Florida, then more often then not I would bet the guy didnt have a clearance.

Just an observation from when I was down there.

That point aside I see where Bliz is coming from.

 

[Fly_Unity]

It sounds like they were just trying to climb out of the fog (and I assume staying in Class G until meeting class E minimums). Its pretty common out here, and legal.

Of course, I'd never heard of an ODP before I moved here...

How is it legal if they in IMC without obeying ALL the IFR rules (terrain requirements, etc) They would have to have 1000 foot ceiling (2000 in mountainous terrain) in order to legally fly in class G IMC without a clearance. The OP stated that the ceiling was 100. So it sounds like the guy got a clearance via the phone or went illegally or maybe was scud running it.

 

[mooneyguy]

I thought about it for a few minutes, and resolved that VFR could be accomplished as long as the aircraft were clear of the clouds. Could.

Fast forward to now. I'm in my airplane again, aircraft fueled with low lead, me fueled with turkey and cheese. Next to my airplane on the ramp is an empty 172. While conducting our pre taxi briefs and checklists two men board the 172 and begin to taxi. I didn't hear a taxi call. I didn't hear a call for IFR clearance on the RCO frequency for the closest approach facility. About 5 minutes later I hear them call CTAF with "departing runway XX south".

Current conditions are VV001 and 1SM or less. I'm estimating these because ASOS was OTS, however the closest airport was reporting similar conditions. Sitting in my aircraft on the ramp, I was unable to see completely across the airfield. After departing we were IMC by 150 feet and breaking through the top at almost 700 feet.

Checking in with departure and no 172 on frequency there.

I haven't stopped thinking about this since it happened. What possesses people to do such stupid things? Why were airplanes using this uncontrolled field for VFR flight operations in such poor visibility? Not just one, but multiple aircraft had come and gone during conditions that I barely feel comfortable departing IFR in while in a single engine piston aircraft.

Cloud clearance requirements are there for a reason. Maneuvering low level in low visibility isn't smart. Spatial disorientation is real and it will kill you. Being conservative isn't just for politicians. Statistics aren't just numbers, they're people that are no longer alive because of being unable to make good judgement calls, or not being able to identify and stop the error chain.

Stay safe people.

I think we have established that the 172 pilot could have been flying legally. I respect your opinion, and understand how you feel. Personally I feel its a very poor judgment call to depart with a ceiling lower then non precision instrument approach minimums (single engine). The man who taught me that had 55 years in the aviation business (at that time) with over 30,000 hours in GA. So, are you wrong for taking off w/ a vv001 IMO yes, but that's me! if you feel safe doing it, that's your call! I do not make taxi calls while taxing at an UNCONTROLLED airport. I hate being in the pattern looking for traffic and hearing some guy on the ground pulling away from the fuel pump telling me all about it...

With the list of things you mentioned I wonder what your attention level in the cockpit was when you where making a takeoff with 150' ceilings, it sounds like, by your own words your attention was on this other guy...:dunno:

futurepilot1 the protocol for reporting someone...if you see someone doing something you know is illegal...say buzzing a pier in a jet 50' off the deck at 300kts....seeing someone doing aerobatics in the pattern (not during an airshow) if you know he is being unsafe, and his actions are illegal then report him.

Of course this is all just my opinion to the op, your right we all need to be careful out there!

 

[Schinpop]

How is it legal if they in IMC without obeying ALL the IFR rules (terrain requirements, etc) They would have to have 1000 foot ceiling (2000 in mountainous terrain) in order to legally fly in class G IMC without a clearance. The OP stated that the ceiling was 100. So it sounds like the guy got a clearance via the phone or went illegally or maybe was scud running it.

This is most definitely not true. I can fly IFR in class G all day without a clearance. I absolutely do not need a 1000' ceiling to do this. You can take off from a G airport in 0/0 if you want without a clearance as long as you meet VFR cloud and vis requirements before you enter E airspace. This is basic stuff, guys.

 

[mooneyguy]

How is it legal if they in IMC without obeying ALL the IFR rules (terrain requirements, etc) They would have to have 1000 foot ceiling (2000 in mountainous terrain) in order to legally fly in class G IMC without a clearance. The OP stated that the ceiling was 100. So it sounds like the guy got a clearance via the phone or went illegally or maybe was scud running it.

How is it not Legal to take off IMC in class G? terrain requirements are for the en-route portion. you have to take off and land at some point. obviously 1000' terrain clearance is not possible in either of those phases regardless of what airspace your in. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying...

taking off IMC in G as long as you will have the legal requirements for entering class E you're good to go. even if there was Class E at 1200 over the airport in this discussion, the OP said he was VFR before 700', that's still 500' below.

still not something I would have done, but...

 

[boondr]

I have had a situation as an ATC where I am about 95% sure a VFR 1200 code was flying around in IMC. He buzzed no less than three of my IFR guys and every single one reported solid IMC at same altitude.(Yes this guy was squawking 1200 flying around on a solid IMC day at IFR altitudes) Had one Cape Air flight I had to give a 100 degree turn and immediate climb to because the VFR guy was randomly changing altitudes and directions. The Cape Air came within >1 mile and 400 ft of this "VFR" aircraft and said he NEVER saw a single opening in the clouds. I believe the Cape Air pilot's quote after that was "Thank you and I like to find out who that idiot was"

 

[TheresaPilot]

Stay safe people.

Just wondering, not to sound like an ass, but did the ceiling drop after you came in or where you starting out at that airport?

 

[Dan208B]

Of course there are certain exception to this, but as a general rule, don't EVER turn other pilots in. You might as well be handing someone over to the SS...

 

[bLizZuE]

With the list of things you mentioned I wonder what your attention level in the cockpit was when you where making a takeoff with 150' ceilings, it sounds like, by your own words your attention was on this other guy...:dunno:

I'm pretty good at dividing my attention, however I was well aware of what was taking place in my airplane. I appreciate your concern.

Just wondering, not to sound like an ass, but did the ceiling drop after you came in or where you starting out at that airport?

We arrived to an approximate 800 ft broken layer, during our stay the visibility deteriorated as described. I agree with comments about taking off with nothing less than approach minimums to return, in this case it wasn't possible. Within 30 miles was an airport with ILS approaches and my familiarity with the terrain and surrounding area allowed me the confidence in case of any emergency.

To clarify on the airport, golf airspace exists from the surface to 700, and the cloud tops I reported to ATC were at 700. Not sure how someone could have maintained 1000 feet above the clouds if they departed with no clearance. Perhaps they stayed at 700 until clear, but then they would have been 2000 feet below the minimum IFR altitude. But for fun, lets just assume.

Of course there are certain exception to this, but as a general rule, don't EVER turn other pilots in. You might as well be handing someone over to the SS...

Keep in mind that I didn't 'turn in' any pilot. I felt there was indeed uncertainty to the exact reason the crew departed and under what flight rules. However, if I have certain proof and just reason to believe they may be putting others in danger I need no permission or reason other than my own to report that crew. We share the sky and there is no reason to sit by idly while someone puts someone else in potential danger.

 

[matt152]

I hate being in the pattern looking for traffic and hearing some guy on the ground pulling away from the fuel pump telling me all about it...

:yeahthat:

 

[E_Dawg]

I wouldn't worry about it. It may have been legal and you should assume it was. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt, after all he is a fellow pilot.

 

[ppragman]

....


Current conditions are VV001 and 1SM or less. I'm estimating these because ASOS was OTS, however the closest airport was reporting similar conditions. Sitting in my aircraft on the ramp, I was unable to see completely across the airfield. After departing we were IMC by 150 feet and breaking through the top at almost 700 feet.

Ok, They were legal if they had 1sm flight visibility to depart from a class G airport. Done it plenty of times. One mans 1sm mile is another mans SOLID IFR ACK! Also, the ASOS was OTS, so how do you know? Are you a trained weather observer? Do you have years of experience ascertaining visually the minute differences between 3/4SM, and 1SM? No. You don't. Also, conditions change. By the time that you departed the hole that he flew through on the outbound leg could have closed right back up. Was it dangerous for that guy to depart? Potentially, but if experienced, and practiced departing VFR in low visibilities and ceilings, no, it was trivial. What some fail to realize is that not all operations can be measured by the same metric of safety. Conditions, and "standard" practices very wildly from place to place. That departure may, or may not have been bad judgment, that's up to the Pilot in Command to decide, not some bystander, who wasn't in the airplane.

Saw the same thing last week at our airport - C150 comes skimming over the trees in and out of the soup and lands. 600' ceiling and 2mi vis.
Highly doubted it was on an IFR flight plan!

Amazing what you see at airports!

Bp244

Ok, so 600'Cx, and 2Mi vis I can legally fly VFR under part 135 into that airport. No need for an IFR flight plan. In fact, I do that on a fairly regular basis.

Maybe I am misreading but you can fly in G with 1 mile clear of clouds so if you were operating out of a class G airport then there is nothing illegal about it.... I wont fly VFR if I only have 1 mile vis, but its perfectly legal.

Yep perfectly legal, and with a little training (primarily familiarization with a different type of instrument scan) it can be done easily. Also, I don't think that vertical visibility constitutes a ceiling here in the states. Hopefully someone will verify or correct me on this one.

Maybe you could get it from the FBO (if they bought gas or something).

That is something that I would seriously report...

You weren't there, and neither was the OP. What are you guys the Gestapo? "Vell, zee, zer vas dis pilot dat could have potentially done zomething vrong?" No. Just because you wouldn't do something, doesn't mean it constitutes bad judgment, or is indicative of someone who is a loose canon.

Maybe they didn't know they could get approach on the ground and got a clearance over the phone. Maybe you didn't hear them get their clearance during your "taxi briefs". Maybe they were on a different frequency. Maybe they cancelled and went VFR as soon as they were on top. Maybe it's not your job to be the Airplane Police.

Listen to boris, he is wise.

I know I am a newbie, but Maybe those people are a danger to everyone out there flying and maybe they could end up killing you with their actions.

Just sayin.:dunno:

Lol, maybe, but more midairs seem to happen on CAVU days than IMC, so maybe not.

 

[MikeD]

Ok, They were legal if they had 1sm flight visibility to depart from a class G airport. Done it plenty of times. One mans 1sm mile is another mans SOLID IFR ACK! Also, the ASOS was OTS, so how do you know? Are you a trained weather observer? Do you have years of experience ascertaining visually the minute differences between 3/4SM, and 1SM? No. You don't. Also, conditions change.

There was a guy who called the FAA on a helo that departed Class G with near zero viz, claiming that the guy didn't have 1 mile viz. If only that fixed-wing guy knew that helos only need clear of clouds and no viz (specifically states "at a speed that allows the pilot adequate opportunity to see any air traffic or obstruction in time to avoid a collision), then that guy would've known the helo was doing nothing wrong. As it was, nothing eventually came of it, but was BS that the helo owner/pilot could've really done without; all due to some assclown playing aviation policeman about regs he didn't even know a damn thing about.

 

[ljg]

There was a guy who called the FAA on a helo that departed Class G with near zero viz, claiming that the guy didn't have 1 mile viz. If only that fixed-wing guy knew that helos only need clear of clouds and no viz (specifically states "at a speed that allows the pilot adequate opportunity to see any air traffic or obstruction in time to avoid a collision), then that guy would've known the helo was doing nothing wrong. As it was, nothing eventually came of it, but was BS that the helo owner/pilot could've really done without; all due to some assclown playing aviation policeman about regs he didn't even know a damn thing about.

That "assclown" is really asking for it. Now he is on the FAA's radar (what other regulations might he not know), and if the owner/operator knows the identity of the assclown...he's got a bullseye on his back. Matthew 7:1.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Maybe all of these airplanes were professional pilots experienced in VFR operations near minimums obeying all applicable federal laws including cloud clearances and obstacle avoidance due to their high level of professionalism, good SA, and thorough knowledge of the area, weather, and regulations.

Or maybe they were dumbasses who were bootlegging VFR into IFR conditions, trusting their GPS and their questionable instrument skills to keep them safe.

Based on my experiences listening to other pilots outside of my old flight school's training bubble, option B seems a lot more likely. There are a LOT of dumb people out there who think they can get away with it. Occam's Razor-the simplest explanation is usually correct. And the simplest explanation usually involves people being stupid.

Would I call the FAA? Naw, no way to prove anything. I'd just hate them in silence.

 

[Boris Badenov]

certainly is a great response to a safety of flight issue.

Safety Of Flight!? Oh my. Well, as long as it's For The Children or whatever, I'll happily live in an informant-riddled Surveillance Society! Nevermind! Can we arrange to keep this embarrassing lapse in judgment on my part out of my Stasi file?

Here, feel free to borrow my hood and ask Doug to reset your post
count to zero and start again.

???

I think most of us do mind our own business but we still watch out for each other and occasionally someone sticks their business in our face.

How was anyone sticking their business in anyone's face in the above scenario? Some guys went flying. Some other guy thought they were breaking the law and decided to tell us about it. Now he's being encouraged to call Big Brother. Sort of like "there I was just minding my own business when your face ran in to my fist!"?

any of us are here to learn from your experience and share ours. If all that really boils down is this then someones been cheated.

No kidding. Where's my check?

Don't play FAA but also don't abdicate your right to question if something seems unsafe.

Not quite sure what you mean here. You can question whether they sky is blue, it's a free country. How would one abdicate this right?

 

[bLizZuE]

Also, the ASOS was OTS, so how do you know? Are you a trained weather observer? Do you have years of experience ascertaining visually the minute differences between 3/4SM, and 1SM?

Yes. I do. When I'm at one end of a runway that's less than a mile, and I can't see the end of it, I don't have to be Einstien to add 2 and 2 together.

Good to see this simple observation turned into the usual pissing contest.

 

[mooneyguy]

I'm pretty good at dividing my attention, however I was well aware of what was taking place in my airplane. I appreciate your concern.

I know reading a message on a forum, or email or text it's not always possible to get exactly what the person is saying. Sometimes things not meant to come across as sarcastic may seem that way to the reader.

Like here, I ASSUME your comment "I appreciate your concern" was more sarcastic then you really appreciating my concern for your well being.

It interest me then, that you felt complete confidence in doing something many here said they wouldn't do, and that is ok for you, but you chose to start a thread about the OTHER GUY who did something he shouldn't have done which was "Stupid".
Which in reality could have been the same thing you did.

I'm sure he must have been well aware of what was going on in HIS airplane...

You brought up a topic on an internet forum, a discussion began, people expressed their opinions I dont think it was a ravenous pack of wolves ready to pounce and throw you in the corner for being a 'snitch' and being ignorant of the rules.
I don't think anyone called you a snitch, but there was one person who said who would have called and reported the guy. I don't think reply's to that post were directed to you.

I do appreciate your post(no sarcasm), it's always good to throw out opinions and see what comes of it. Sometimes you walk away learning something new!

 

[minitour]

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Why

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Bee

-mini

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

It's very often flight instructors who want to play airplane police it seems like... I think they just get used to doing it inside their own airplane with their students combined with the ability to cancel a flight / lesson for weather with no consequences. When I was a CFI everyday for over a year I found myself looking at activities and getting righteous indignant too, where as now I would just shrug.

Use this as a lesson to your students about what may be legal but is in your opinion needlessly risky, bring up the concept of making personal minimums, etc etc. Make a learning experience out of it, but like others said give the guy the benefit of the doubt.