VFR flight plans
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Looking4Lower
New Member
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Mountains, where radar and comm ain't so good. I'm not talking about cruising high above the mountains, but when you're down a little lower near the terrain.
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You know, if you're down so low that radar and communications suck, you're probably below the Minimum Safe Altitude in your region.
Just something to think about . . .
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Question - what is the definition of "Minimum Safe Altitude" with respect to this topic.
I would like to make a point, and I need a little audience participation for those who are interested. There is an intersection called RADDY that is 101 degrees/39 DME off the SEA (Seattle) VORTAC, on the Victor-4 airway. For those who have a Seattle sectional and/or L-1 IFR chart handy, what would be the "Minimum Safe Altitude" over RADDY?
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Mountains, where radar and comm ain't so good. I'm not talking about cruising high above the mountains, but when you're down a little lower near the terrain.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know, if you're down so low that radar and communications suck, you're probably below the Minimum Safe Altitude in your region.
Just something to think about . . .
[ QUOTE ]
Question - what is the definition of "Minimum Safe Altitude" with respect to this topic.
I would like to make a point, and I need a little audience participation for those who are interested. There is an intersection called RADDY that is 101 degrees/39 DME off the SEA (Seattle) VORTAC, on the Victor-4 airway. For those who have a Seattle sectional and/or L-1 IFR chart handy, what would be the "Minimum Safe Altitude" over RADDY?
lilrkt
New Member
On a VFR flight there is no minimum safe altitude. MSA only applies within 25nm of the indicated facility on an approach chart. MOCA(minimum obstruction clearance altitude) is I think what you are looking for, and this can often be below MEA (minimum enroute altitude) which itself does not gaurantee radar coverage.
Looking4Lower
New Member
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On a VFR flight there is no minimum safe altitude.
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Yes, this was partially my point...but anyways, forget about the RADDY thing, here's all I'm saying:
1) The best feature of a VFR flight plan is that it will initiate the location/SAR process if you are overdue, at a specified time. The VFR flight plan will function whether or not you are talking to ATC, whether or not ATC refuses or terminates your flight following, whether or not there is ATC radar or radio coverage, regardless of the type of terrain beneath you, regardless of your altitude, etc. That is useful in certain situations.
2) You can often be VFR over mountainous terrain at a SAFE altitude for your flight operation, but still too low for flight following service. Sure, you can cruise at radar-friendly altitudes and get FF service, but there may be times when you want to be lower. Examples: scenic sightseeing and photo flying, survey/patrol flying, SAR flying, flying a plane without good high-altitude performance, and operating in and out of backcountry airstrips that are tucked down in valleys.
Gotta stop talking about mountains - I'm starting to miss home!
On a VFR flight there is no minimum safe altitude.
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Yes, this was partially my point...but anyways, forget about the RADDY thing, here's all I'm saying:
1) The best feature of a VFR flight plan is that it will initiate the location/SAR process if you are overdue, at a specified time. The VFR flight plan will function whether or not you are talking to ATC, whether or not ATC refuses or terminates your flight following, whether or not there is ATC radar or radio coverage, regardless of the type of terrain beneath you, regardless of your altitude, etc. That is useful in certain situations.
2) You can often be VFR over mountainous terrain at a SAFE altitude for your flight operation, but still too low for flight following service. Sure, you can cruise at radar-friendly altitudes and get FF service, but there may be times when you want to be lower. Examples: scenic sightseeing and photo flying, survey/patrol flying, SAR flying, flying a plane without good high-altitude performance, and operating in and out of backcountry airstrips that are tucked down in valleys.
Gotta stop talking about mountains - I'm starting to miss home!
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean MEA as in IFR flying...I meant MEA with regards to common sense.
With the exception of some very specific types of flying (Military, Ag Flying, Fire fighting, etc, etc), why would I be flying cross country that low? So low that I can't be picked up on radar or talk to anyone at all?
Maybe it's just me.....
With the exception of some very specific types of flying (Military, Ag Flying, Fire fighting, etc, etc), why would I be flying cross country that low? So low that I can't be picked up on radar or talk to anyone at all?
Maybe it's just me.....
There are many areas in central & socal that I'm unable to secure radar contact @ 3 or 4000, yet you can safely fly vfr all day long well below those alts...
In regards to filing VFR my suggestion is to due so for your students cross country solo, I had one incident where the student was lost, low on fuel and didn't know how to squawk and refused to climb because, as she said "the mountains are higher than me"... I finally located her and she was directly over a small airport (santa ynez), yet she refused to land and flew on to santa maria... along the way she called airport in sight and was going to land on the 101 thinking it was santa maria... long story short once she was on the ground, we refused to allow her to leave the airport and her flight instructor had to fly up to retrive the ac and student... Several days later, I spent about 1.5 hours discussing this students actions with the instructor who was blown way by what he was hearing on tape... We also had the ac checked for fuel and according to ground service it was empty...
The bottom line is your the pic and can due what you want, my job is simply to assit you as needed and if your flying VFR I will assist when possible but IFR has priority and as many of you know that means on Friday and Sunday afternoons in central & socal, VFR flight following probably isn't going to be available due to the work load during those hours... So your best option is be safe and file VFR cross country...
In regards to filing VFR my suggestion is to due so for your students cross country solo, I had one incident where the student was lost, low on fuel and didn't know how to squawk and refused to climb because, as she said "the mountains are higher than me"... I finally located her and she was directly over a small airport (santa ynez), yet she refused to land and flew on to santa maria... along the way she called airport in sight and was going to land on the 101 thinking it was santa maria... long story short once she was on the ground, we refused to allow her to leave the airport and her flight instructor had to fly up to retrive the ac and student... Several days later, I spent about 1.5 hours discussing this students actions with the instructor who was blown way by what he was hearing on tape... We also had the ac checked for fuel and according to ground service it was empty...
The bottom line is your the pic and can due what you want, my job is simply to assit you as needed and if your flying VFR I will assist when possible but IFR has priority and as many of you know that means on Friday and Sunday afternoons in central & socal, VFR flight following probably isn't going to be available due to the work load during those hours... So your best option is be safe and file VFR cross country...
Hey sector15. Glad to have a controller on board. Welcome!
Ditto on the safe altitudes while below radar and comm coverage. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of places in northern Michigan with no or limited radar or communication at altitudes up to 3, 4, 5,000 feet or higher. Perfectly safe to be flying in those areas while VFR (assuming VMC). I don't think that there is an MEF (Maximum Elevation Figure?) on the sectionals over 3,000 in the whole state, and most of them are down around 2,000 or lower.
I don't have a sectional in front of me, but if I remember correctly there are even areas in the upper penninsula that are Class G up to 14,500 (might be wrong on that one - I'll check it later). Brings up an interesting topic of conversation - if in Class G airspace can you fly in IMC without an IFR flight plan or clearance as long as you and the plane are instrument rated and approved?
Ditto on the safe altitudes while below radar and comm coverage. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of places in northern Michigan with no or limited radar or communication at altitudes up to 3, 4, 5,000 feet or higher. Perfectly safe to be flying in those areas while VFR (assuming VMC). I don't think that there is an MEF (Maximum Elevation Figure?) on the sectionals over 3,000 in the whole state, and most of them are down around 2,000 or lower.
I don't have a sectional in front of me, but if I remember correctly there are even areas in the upper penninsula that are Class G up to 14,500 (might be wrong on that one - I'll check it later). Brings up an interesting topic of conversation - if in Class G airspace can you fly in IMC without an IFR flight plan or clearance as long as you and the plane are instrument rated and approved?
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
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if in Class G airspace can you fly in IMC without an IFR flight plan or clearance as long as you and the plane are instrument rated and approved?
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Of my interpretation of Class G, you can fly in IMC without a flight plan or clearance.
if in Class G airspace can you fly in IMC without an IFR flight plan or clearance as long as you and the plane are instrument rated and approved?
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Of my interpretation of Class G, you can fly in IMC without a flight plan or clearance.
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Brings up an interesting topic of conversation - if in Class G airspace can you fly in IMC without an IFR flight plan or clearance as long as you and the plane are instrument rated and approved?
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According to my instructor, there is a clause somewhere in the FARs requiring a flight plan be filed for all flght in less than VFR conditions; however, you would not need to receive a clearance or talk to ATC while in class G airspace. The question is - would you want to?
Brings up an interesting topic of conversation - if in Class G airspace can you fly in IMC without an IFR flight plan or clearance as long as you and the plane are instrument rated and approved?
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According to my instructor, there is a clause somewhere in the FARs requiring a flight plan be filed for all flght in less than VFR conditions; however, you would not need to receive a clearance or talk to ATC while in class G airspace. The question is - would you want to?
Looking4Lower
New Member
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In that case then, we should start talking about OROCAs and ORTCAs.
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Free Willey?
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Dude, I just got that (I'm a little slow sometimes)!! Hilarious!!
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In that case then, we should start talking about OROCAs and ORTCAs.
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Free Willey?
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Dude, I just got that (I'm a little slow sometimes)!! Hilarious!!
Looking4Lower
New Member
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With the exception of some very specific types of flying (Military, Ag Flying, Fire fighting, etc, etc), why would I be flying cross country that low? So low that I can't be picked up on radar or talk to anyone at all?
Maybe it's just me.....
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Why is it so critical to be on radar and talking to ATC throughout every VFR flight? Just because you might be non-radar and/or not talking to ATC doesn't mean that you're some kind of crazy "extreme sport" aviator!
With the exception of some very specific types of flying (Military, Ag Flying, Fire fighting, etc, etc), why would I be flying cross country that low? So low that I can't be picked up on radar or talk to anyone at all?
Maybe it's just me.....
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Why is it so critical to be on radar and talking to ATC throughout every VFR flight? Just because you might be non-radar and/or not talking to ATC doesn't mean that you're some kind of crazy "extreme sport" aviator!
Alaskan bush pilots are some of the best aviators I've flown with and really know what their ac is capable of doing and use that knowledge to their advantage to perform what we think is crazy... I've been scared by a couple bush pilots a few times when I first started visiting the Alaskan outback, however after visiting for many years, I've learned to expect and accept certain things, like diving a beaver 2500' threw a hole in the clouds only to pull level at around 50 ft off the water, this was the last time the wife has ever gone flying in the beaver with us, because she says Tom is just to crazy, however I can go because I have enough life insurance, that if anything happens she'll be rich...
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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With the exception of some very specific types of flying (Military, Ag Flying, Fire fighting, etc, etc), why would I be flying cross country that low? So low that I can't be picked up on radar or talk to anyone at all?
Maybe it's just me.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it so critical to be on radar and talking to ATC throughout every VFR flight? Just because you might be non-radar and/or not talking to ATC doesn't mean that you're some kind of crazy "extreme sport" aviator!
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Dude, not saying that at all. If you're safe and comfy, do it! If you feel safe, do it! That's exactly why I qualified that post with, "Maybe it's just me. . .".
I'm just saying that I don't fly around that low, out of radar coverage if I can help it. I don't fly around without talking at ATC for extended periods of time. Then again, I am the guy that will file IFR for a 25-mile trip across the BNA Class C, just so that they can't ignore me....
Different folks for different folks!!!
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With the exception of some very specific types of flying (Military, Ag Flying, Fire fighting, etc, etc), why would I be flying cross country that low? So low that I can't be picked up on radar or talk to anyone at all?
Maybe it's just me.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is it so critical to be on radar and talking to ATC throughout every VFR flight? Just because you might be non-radar and/or not talking to ATC doesn't mean that you're some kind of crazy "extreme sport" aviator!
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I'm just saying that I don't fly around that low, out of radar coverage if I can help it. I don't fly around without talking at ATC for extended periods of time. Then again, I am the guy that will file IFR for a 25-mile trip across the BNA Class C, just so that they can't ignore me....
Different folks for different folks!!!
Looking4Lower
New Member
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Dude, not saying that at all. If you're safe and comfy, do it! If you feel safe, do it! That's exactly why I qualified that post with, "Maybe it's just me. . .".
I'm just saying that I don't fly around that low, out of radar coverage if I can help it. I don't fly around without talking at ATC for extended periods of time.
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Fair enough - I guess I've always really liked the freedom of low-n-slow flying.
My little avatar picture shows a backcountry airstrip called Ranger Creek (6WA8) in Washington State. The field elevation is 2650', but it sits in a valley which is surrounded by 5000' - 7000' terrain. You can easily and safely fly up the valley from the Seattle area to get to this strip, staying over Hwy 410 and the White River (full of gravel bars) on the way. You can fly along at several thousand feet AGL but still be non-radar and out of communication with most of the rest of the world. A safe and conservative flight (in my opinion), as long as the weather is favorable and you know some things about mountain flying.
A VFR flight plan could provide some insurance in a situation like this where ATC service is not available for your route of flight.
Dude, not saying that at all. If you're safe and comfy, do it! If you feel safe, do it! That's exactly why I qualified that post with, "Maybe it's just me. . .".
I'm just saying that I don't fly around that low, out of radar coverage if I can help it. I don't fly around without talking at ATC for extended periods of time.
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Fair enough - I guess I've always really liked the freedom of low-n-slow flying.
My little avatar picture shows a backcountry airstrip called Ranger Creek (6WA8) in Washington State. The field elevation is 2650', but it sits in a valley which is surrounded by 5000' - 7000' terrain. You can easily and safely fly up the valley from the Seattle area to get to this strip, staying over Hwy 410 and the White River (full of gravel bars) on the way. You can fly along at several thousand feet AGL but still be non-radar and out of communication with most of the rest of the world. A safe and conservative flight (in my opinion), as long as the weather is favorable and you know some things about mountain flying.
A VFR flight plan could provide some insurance in a situation like this where ATC service is not available for your route of flight.