VFR flight following question???

PlaneCrazy

PlaneCrazy

Well-Known Member
OK, so since getting my insturment rating I have all but forgot how to fly VFR.:D My question is this: when on flight following and approaching a class D airport, are you ok to enter the airspace without establishing contact with the tower? In other words, does communication with ATC count for establishing two way communication with the class D tower?
 
I would say yes:

"Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace."

So I think they would switch you to tower if going through their airspace.
 
PlaneCrazy said:
OK, so since getting my insturment rating I have all but forgot how to fly VFR.:D My question is this: when on flight following and approaching a class D airport, are you ok to enter the airspace without establishing contact with the tower? In other words, does communication with ATC count for establishing two way communication with the class D tower?
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See if this answers your question:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/pilot-...exactly-how-much-authority-does-atc-have.html
 
IFR, yes. ATC can clear you for an approach, into any airspace they control. Approach, not tower, does this.

VFR, generally yes.
Sec. 91.129 - Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section.

If Approach tells you "right 210, maintain 2000," it is an ATC instruction, as defined in the pilot/controller glossary. The P/CG also defines Approach as the facility having jurisdiction, so again, you are fine.
 
At MRI I dealt with this a lot. I'd get "Spernak 38, Contact Tower, G'Day"
"Spernak 38, c ya."
Then if I couldn't get a word in edge wise I'd circle at the border of Class D until the controller acknowledged me with something other than "Standby" Then I'd come on in.

Remember CYA! The controllers at MRI were cool as hell, and I knew most of them pretty well. The approach controllers, not so much.
 
ppragman said:
Remember CYA! The controllers at MRI were cool as hell, and I knew most of them pretty well. The approach controllers, not so much.
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I don't think it is really expected around here, where we have three Deltas, all touching each other, all directly under a Bravo. When the approaches all go through other airspace, it really should not be the pilots and tower controllers coordinating things. That's why approach exists.

The "class C" letter doesn't apply here, that was a hypothetical center controller, not approach.

And by the way, the FAA uses the same language for Charlie and Bravo airspace - radio contact "with the ATC Facility." You would never think of contacting the tower when transiting a Bravo. A Delta is no different, approach is the appropriate ATC Facility.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I don't think it is really expected around here, where we have three Deltas, all touching each other, all directly under a Bravo. When the approaches all go through other airspace, it really should not be the pilots and tower controllers coordinating things. That's why approach exists.

The "class C" letter doesn't apply here, that was a hypothetical center controller, not approach.

And by the way, the FAA uses the same language for Charlie and Bravo airspace - radio contact "with the ATC Facility." You would never think of contacting the tower when transiting a Bravo. A Delta is no different, approach is the appropriate ATC Facility.
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:yeahthat:

Think about it, in the DFW airspace, you're dealing with the approaches into DFW and DAL and god only knows how many different departures coming out of those. If you were switching to ADS, RBD, TKI, DTO etc (just throwing out the first few that popped into my head), it would just get hectic, and regional would just want to yell at you.
 
For what it's worth, I've been on flight following with SDF approach going into JVY and they vectored me around LOU's class D (which is beneath the outer shelf of SDF's class C)
 
Hmmm, the reason I ask is because I was flying in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:place></st1:City> last week with flight following. Going to a class D airport, ATC asked if I had the field in sight, I said negative and kept flying. Was about 4 miles from the airport when I saw the runway, canceled flight following, contacted tower, then preceded to chop and drop. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I stayed at a safe altitude and didn’t want to enter D until communication with tower (CYA). I was just trying to figure out if that was the right thing to do or was I ok to enter D because I was on with ATC...
 
tgrayson said:
See if this answers your question:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/pilot-...exactly-how-much-authority-does-atc-have.html
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Kind of a long thread to ask someone to browse through. How about this from the ATC Handbook (FAA Order 7110.65):

==============================
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.​

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

==============================

These are the three things that ATC is "supposed" to do.

If you are on FF, ATC should either coordinate your entry into the destination airport or let you go.

When they make the change can vary a lot.

Where Approach Control is part of the same facility as Tower (Class C or Class D with it's one radar approach) I would not be surprised how late the transfer occurs, if it happens at all - I've received landing clearances from Approach and never spoke to ground.

Where the facilities are completely separate, however, getting too close will usually get a query from me - Denver Approach had an annoying habit of waiting until you got into KAPA's airspace before telling you to change frequencies - without coordinating the transition. KAPA's controllers were not too thrilled about that.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

==============================
Click to expand...

Couldn't be more clear to me.

As far as radar traffic advisories go, you are better off talking to approach as long as possible. The only real separation responsibility a tower controller has is the runway. 10 miles out, at least approach knows about the traffic around you.
 
Flight following is a service ATC offers for VFR traffic and it seems to me that the responsibility of contacting the Class D tower would be still on the pilot. Unless, the controller clears you through the Class D after he/she communicates it with tower.

Jtsastre
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Kind of a long thread to ask someone to browse through. How about this from the ATC Handbook (FAA Order 7110.65):
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I was trying to avoid having to repost this:


Mike Granby
605 Holly Court
York, Pennsylvania 17406
Dear Mr. Granby:

In a letter dated February 10, 2006, you asked us about the meaning and application of Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) section 91.130(c)(1) which addresses arrival or through flight in Class C airspace. 14 CFR § 91.130(c)(1) states in relevant part:

Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements: Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the [emphasis supplied] ATC (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

In your letter, you inquired whether use of the definite article “the”, which is italicized above, indicates a requirement to contact the air traffic control (ATC) facility charged with managing the specific Class C airspace or whether contact with any ATC facility would suffice. The answer is that the regulation requires that the operator contact the specific ATC facility responsible for the Class C airspace in question. In the case of Class C airspace, that facility is the Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON).

Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.

The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.

Advisory services such as flight following are furnished to VFR traffic as a courtesy when workloads permit. By providing this courtesy, the Center does not obligate itself to advise pilots operating under VFR of their geographic position nor of their obligations under section 91.130(c)(1) or any other sections of 14 CFR. However, the FAA does recognize that there could be circumstances that mitigate the violation depending on the actual contents of the two-way communication between the pilot and the Center.

If you have any further questions please contact Mr. Naveen Rao of my staff at (202) 267-3073. Thank you for your inquiry.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
When they make the change can vary a lot.

Where Approach Control is part of the same facility as Tower (Class C or Class D with it's one radar approach) I would not be surprised how late the transfer occurs, if it happens at all - I've received landing clearances from Approach and never spoke to ground.

Where the facilities are completely separate, however, getting too close will usually get a query from me - Denver Approach had an annoying habit of waiting until you got into KAPA's airspace before telling you to change frequencies - without coordinating the transition. KAPA's controllers were not too thrilled about that.
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Agree. Have seen the same. To me, even though the ATC handbook says that ATC should coordinate a clearance into separate facilities (same facilities also, but thats kind of assumed), if you're VFR and you go tooling into the Class D area but never queried ATC if you were cleared to, it's kind of on the pilot SA-wise. Good ATC will advise that the heading/altitude you're flying will be taking you through a Class D area and that you're cleared to do so, but if they miss doing that, the pilot should have the SA to query. Clear in the bolded portion below:

TGrayson said:
Also in your letter you posited a situation in which a pilot operating under visual flight rules (VFR) is communicating with an Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC or Center) while approaching the boundary of Class C airspace. In your hypothetical, you inquired whether a pilot would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) if he enters the Class C airspace while in two-way communication with the Center and not the TRACON. You further inquired if the Center’s “failure to hand him off” would relieve the pilot of the responsibility to establish two-way communication with the TRACON prior to entering their Class C airspace.

The operator of the aircraft would be in violation of section 91.130(c)(1) in the hypothetical that you present. Under section 91.3, the pilot in command is directly responsible for and is the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft. The receipt of traffic advisories from a Center or any other ATC facility does not relieve the pilot of the responsibilities of section 91.3.
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Being VFR, flight following is indeed a courtesy, but we as pilots need to be PIC and have SA, not just be along for the ride. I've seen this: ARTCC gets busy on freq while you're on there getting flight following VFR and heading towards Class B airspace. Since flight following is low-priority, ARTCC misses that you're approaching Class B and misses releasing you to change freqs. You could:

A: Tool along fat/dumb/happy, penetrate Class B and get violated because you were either just along for the ride, didn't physically know where your aircraft was, or figured that it was ATCs responsibility to change you over,

or

B: You could know where your plane is going, query ATC or request to cancel and change freqs, and otherwise not pentrate the CBA; since as PIC you know whats going on and what you need to do; and since ARTCC is busy and you're low priority, you understand the position you're in.

Which one would you as pilots want?
 
MikeD said:
You could:

A: Tool along fat/dumb/happy, penetrate Class B and get violated because you were either just along for the ride, didn't physically know where your aircraft was, or figured that it was ATCs responsibility to change you over,

or

B: You could know where your plane is going, query ATC or request to cancel and change freqs, and otherwise not pentrate the CBA; since as PIC you know whats going on and what you need to do; and since ARTCC is busy and you're low priority, you understand the position you're in.

Which one would you as pilots want?
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Or,

C: Just file IFR, you'll already have your clearance, ATC is less likely to forget about you.
 
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