Very Light Jets

The airlines and manufacturers that have been around for decades have the attitude, Raburn said, that "if it hasn't been done before, it can't be done or it won't be done or it shouldn't be done."
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That is a pretty accurate comment.

The FAA predicts at least 4,500 VLJs will be in service 10 years from now, though Blakey concedes that's a conservative estimate. NASA projects 20,000 in 2010.
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We'll see. Should be fun. Maybe I can fly one of those in my old age instead of being a Walmart greeter.
 
I worked in the FAA research center in ACY where we ran computer simulations of the air traffic system. SATS, Small Air Transportation System airplanes really are forecast to be introduced in numbers straight out of that article. It'll be interesting in some locations because the simulation included a graphical view of the traffic patterns and predicted ground holds and so forth and the major areas like the Northeast corridor and Southern California were totally clogged.

The good thing about these VLJs is that they can go into many small airports. The bad thing is that they still must have the same separation as anything else that flies around on an IFR flight plan and near other airports that is a problem.
 
Nick said:
The good thing about these VLJs is that they can go into many small airports. The bad thing is that they still must have the same separation as anything else that flies around on an IFR flight plan and near other airports that is a problem.
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That, and they fly a lot slower than a 737... The analogy in the article was "like a car driving 45 MPH on the highway" :-)
 
are the pro pilots going to be flying these things, or will "wealthy america" start treating these VLJs the same way doctors did with the Bonanzas way back when- and cause a lot of accidents. For my part I hope not, I still feel that the Flight Levels and above 10,000 feet are somewhat safer... I couldn't imagine a guy fresh into his VLJ filing FL330 and dealing with the problems one encounters up there.

Hopefully insurance will be our umbrella...
 
If they fly much less than .74 or so, they're going to get (and rightfully so) stuck below the optimum cruise altitudes a lot like the 328Jet.
 
Oh, I can hear it now . . .

"Tune Traffic, Eclipse Jet 42J is south, we gon' land at the big Tuna, which runway 'yall usin'??"

:mad:
 
Accident rates are going to go up drastically, once these suckers start hitting the skies.
 
sorrygottarunway said:
are the pro pilots going to be flying these things, or will "wealthy america" start treating these VLJs the same way doctors did with the Bonanzas way back when- and cause a lot of accidents. For my part I hope not, I still feel that the Flight Levels and above 10,000 feet are somewhat safer... I couldn't imagine a guy fresh into his VLJ filing FL330 and dealing with the problems one encounters up there.

Hopefully insurance will be our umbrella...
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So far 95% of the orders are from companies planning on-demand or scheduled service. So that would be "pros".

I don't worry too much about the whole class envy "wealthy america" thing. It's not surprising that most professionals, like doctors and other successful people, are smart enough to fly professionally. Just as with the pro ranks there are always a few bad apples. But I'm sure the good doctor/pilots get weary of the slams, just like we complain about the public slams against pro pilots.

It's not the paycheck that makes you a pro.
 
flyover said:
So far 95% of the orders are from companies planning on-demand or scheduled service. So that would be "pros".

I don't worry too much about the whole class envy "wealthy america" thing. It's not surprising that most professionals, like doctors and other successful people, are smart enough to fly professionally. Just as with the pro ranks there are always a few bad apples. But I'm sure the good doctor/pilots get weary of the slams, just like we complain about the public slams against pro pilots.

It's not the paycheck that makes you a pro.
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Sit right seat as a CFI with a brand new "wealthy" student and more often than not you get attitude. Someone who saves lives or or knows the law or is a successful business owner usually doesn't like taking "orders" from a younger person. Are all of 'em like that? No. But there is a reason those "slams" exist.

But I'll agree a paycheck doesn't necessarily make you a pro.
 
pilot602 said:
Sit right seat as a CFI with a brand new "wealthy" student and more often than not you get attitude. Someone who saves lives or or knows the law or is a successful business owner usually doesn't like taking "orders" from a younger person. Are all of 'em like that? No. But there is a reason those "slams" exist.
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No kidding. I had a doctor as a student in NJ. This guy would drive 40+ minutes to the airport and was pissed off when I said the wx wasn't good. One day he finally got to me when he was upset that I wouldn't go flying in 3 sm at night in the NYC airspace (out of teterboro). Another CFI took him. I found out later he failed his private, and his instrument checkrides. I'm not sure why he failed his private, but he failed his instrument because of lack of situational awareness...

The other problem with these wealthy people is that there time really is valuable, and they could care less if they no-showed you. Kinda aggravating. One of my best students was a cop from Paramus - he knew the value of my time and was a good stick to boot.

But I'll agree a paycheck doesn't necessarily make you a pro.
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I had a boss once that said "a professional is someone who does the right thing, because it's the right thing to do". I thought that about summed it up.

~wheelsup
 
flyover said:
Quote:
The FAA predicts at least 4,500 VLJs will be in service 10 years from now, though Blakey concedes that's a conservative estimate. NASA projects 20,000 in 2010.
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20,000 in 4 years?? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight..
That means they have to build 13+ aircraft per day for 4 years, and none of them are even certified yet.

NASA said the Space Shuttle would have a 2 week turn around time. The best they ever did was 6 months.
 
So far the pricing will keep the aircraft with professional groups, the pricese that I have seen start at about $1 million - $2.5. million, for the Eclispe & the Cessna Mustang. The pricing should keep these aircraft out of the hands of Joe-Bob....

I am hoping that the training is standard & strict, not like the training for some of these General Aviation pilots out there that do not even know simple ground hand signals......
 
Maybe I'm off base but how many amateur pilots do you see flying around their own personal King Air? I don't think this aircraft will cause explosive growth in personally-flown high performance aircraft, nor will it lead to a signifigant loss in safety. It is still a million + dollar airplane, jet powered or not. Even when they start showing up on the used market, insurance, maintenance, training, currency, etc will keep the cost high.

Now pilot salaries may be a different story...
 
E_Dawg said:
Maybe I'm off base but how many amateur pilots do you see flying around their own personal King Air? I don't think this aircraft will cause explosive growth in personally-flown high performance aircraft, nor will it lead to a signifigant loss in safety. It is still a million + dollar airplane, jet powered or not. Even when they start showing up on the used market, insurance, maintenance, training, currency, etc will keep the cost high.
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I think the better comparison would be to a Meridian or TBM, which I believe are mainly owner flown.
 
mpenguin1 said:
...not like the training for some of these General Aviation pilots out there that do not even know simple ground hand signals......
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Easy, that goes both ways. You can have two line guys at the same FBO, and neither one of them do it the same (or right).
 
Saw an add in an AOPA magazine with a Dr bragging about his new jet. This is the year 2000+ doctor killers.
 
Kingairer said:
Saw an add in an AOPA magazine with a Dr bragging about his new jet. This is the year 2000+ doctor killers.
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It's going to be a blood bath before the FAA finally steps in and stops it. And THAT's what's going to kill the air taxi business out of the gate (he media stories about VLJ's falling out of the skies is going to prevent most business people using air taxis).

The economics of air taxi will kill it long term - but short term the fork tail VLJ will probably kill it at birth. Shame - it's an exciting but foolish concept :-)
 
CFIse said:
It's going to be a blood bath before the FAA finally steps in and stops it. And THAT's what's going to kill the air taxi business out of the gate (he media stories about VLJ's falling out of the skies is going to prevent most business people using air taxis).

The economics of air taxi will kill it long term - but short term the fork tail VLJ will probably kill it at birth. Shame - it's an exciting but foolish concept :-)
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"blood bath", "VLJ's falling out of the skies"???

You really think so? I think that the requirement for a type rating (they are jets, after all), and the training and experience requirements that the insurance companies will probably be demanding will prevent most of that. Makes for good soundbites, though. :)
 
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