"Vee" Tail Bonanza?

clayfenderstrat

clayfenderstrat

Well-Known Member
Just a quick question for those of you who know anything about the Beechcraft Bonanza 35. I have been doing a little research on the "VEE" tail design after we talked briefly about the pros and cons of the tail in class. Is there really a safety concern with this design? It seems that the FAA issued a couple of ADs on the design, and kits were offered to reinforce the base of the tail. It earned the nickname, "The Doctor Killer" and there are many accident reports of the tail breaking up in flight. What's the deal? Is this just a stigma, or is this really an unsafe/accident prone design?

Thanks in advance for all the help--hopefully I can get some good info from you guys!
 
You can find inflight breakups of every make and model. Bonanza's got their nickname because it was such a "complex" and expensive airplane flown by people with more money than sense when it came to currency. Yes, there are kits designed to beef up the tail as per an AD. (if I remember correctly)

No design can be faulted for people doing dumb stuff in airplanes not designed for it.

In short the V-tail is a great airframe but still falls short of a Mooney. :D
 
clayfenderstrat said:
Just a quick question for those of you who know anything about the Beechcraft Bonanza 35. I have been doing a little research on the "VEE" tail design after we talked briefly about the pros and cons of the tail in class. Is there really a safety concern with this design? It seems that the FAA issued a couple of ADs on the design, and kits were offered to reinforce the base of the tail. It earned the nickname, "The Doctor Killer" and there are many accident reports of the tail breaking up in flight. What's the deal? Is this just a stigma, or is this really an unsafe/accident prone design?

Thanks in advance for all the help--hopefully I can get some good info from you guys!
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I think the primary reason for the nickname of "V tailed Doctor Killer" came from the crosscountry flight on cruise, then when fuel wasn't managed properly- on preparation for approach, the good Doc discovered he couldn't input enough control after disconnecting the AutoPilot.
 
clayfenderstrat said:
It earned the nickname, "The Doctor Killer" and there are many accident reports of the tail breaking up in flight. What's the deal? Is this just a stigma, or is this really an unsafe/accident prone design?
Click to expand...

I cannot speak for tail structure as I am not familiar.

However, as for doctor killers. That should be renamed surgeon killers, but that is besides the point. Imagine getting 50 hours of training in a 172 for your private or 100 hours for your instrument, cruising around at 120 knots. Then go out and buy yourself a bonanza that cruises at 180/190 and you can imagine what the outcome would be. Especially if you tear into hard IFR with that little bit of experience.

Basically, the problem wasn't the aircraft so much as stupidity and not enough training. Same thing cirrus is facing now.
 
shdw said:
I cannot speak for tail structure as I am not familiar.

However, as for doctor killers. That should be renamed surgeon killers, but that is besides the point. Imagine getting 50 hours of training in a 172 for your private or 100 hours for your instrument, cruising around at 120 knots. Then go out and buy yourself a bonanza that cruises at 180/190 and you can imagine what the outcome would be. Especially if you tear into hard IFR with that little bit of experience.

Basically, the problem wasn't the aircraft so much as stupidity and not enough training. Same thing cirrus is facing now.
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yep...
 
clayfenderstrat said:
Just a quick question for those of you who know anything about the Beechcraft Bonanza 35. I have been doing a little research on the "VEE" tail design after we talked briefly about the pros and cons of the tail in class. Is there really a safety concern with this design? It seems that the FAA issued a couple of ADs on the design, and kits were offered to reinforce the base of the tail. It earned the nickname, "The Doctor Killer" and there are many accident reports of the tail breaking up in flight. What's the deal? Is this just a stigma, or is this really an unsafe/accident prone design?

Thanks in advance for all the help--hopefully I can get some good info from you guys!
Click to expand...

I instructed in both the older Vee tail and the Debonair. Only way I could tell the difference was to look at the tail.
 
WacoFan said:
I like V-tail Bonanza's.
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Yeah, I really like the look of the Vee-Tail. It is a very unique and attractive design. I figured that the high performance aspect was partially to blame. It is just such a different design that really cut down on drag produced from the tail. I am surprised that more manufacturers didn't run with the design. Maybe safety concerns were a deterrent, but it seems that the consensus is most of the accidents were a result of pilot error..........
 
clayfenderstrat said:
Just a quick question for those of you who know anything about the Beechcraft Bonanza 35. I have been doing a little research on the "VEE" tail design after we talked briefly about the pros and cons of the tail in class. Is there really a safety concern with this design? It seems that the FAA issued a couple of ADs on the design, and kits were offered to reinforce the base of the tail. It earned the nickname, "The Doctor Killer" and there are many accident reports of the tail breaking up in flight. What's the deal? Is this just a stigma, or is this really an unsafe/accident prone design?

Thanks in advance for all the help--hopefully I can get some good info from you guys!
Click to expand...

I guess there is some conjecture about the plane being unsafe because of the tail.

Yes it was, not anymore. I don't know exactly what everyone else means, but the V tail had a design flaw that cause the tailfins to come off. That is why the cuffs were put on, that did fix the problem. Some may argue the V tails breakups were pilot induced, that is partially true, an overspeed condition with an abrupt pullup by the pilot to correct the overspeed is one way the fins come off. It was decided the way to correct the problem was to add the cuffs. Should the pilot never have been in the condition? Arguable. Does it matter? No. Beech was ordered to comply with the request of the FAA to reinforce the fins, they did.

The only thing you have to worry about on that thing is the damn fishtailing. Backseats suck in even mild turbulence.

The plane is fast, not really for a newbie, and the older models have the flap and gear handle right next to each other, underneath the control column and are tough to see. Watched a guy pull his gear up while on taxi off the runway because he confused one switch for the other. He had hundreds of hours on that thing. BE CAREFUL.

I've got 50 something hours in the thing.
 
clayfenderstrat said:
Is there really a safety concern with this design?
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It had an in flight break up rate about 24 times that of the equivalent straight version of the same airplane, according to Aviation Consumer. There were over 230 break ups. The later versions were better, but the problem never went away.

But you probably do have to lose control of the airplane first before you get into a situation where you're likely to suffer airframe failure. Possibly some of the handling characteristics of the V-tail made this more likely to happen than the straight tail models.
 
My uncle wants to get rid his cherokee and get a v-tail becuase they are cheap to get. Anyone get the performance numbers on them like fuel burn and speed that I could give him?
 
tgrayson said:
It had an in flight break up rate about 24 times that of the equivalent straight version of the same airplane, according to Aviation Consumer. There were over 230 break ups. The later versions were better, but the problem never went away.

But you probably do have to lose control of the airplane first before you get into a situation where you're likely to suffer airframe failure. Possibly some of the handling characteristics of the V-tail made this more likely to happen than the straight tail models.
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Annoyingly easy to get into an overspeed. It's like it gets past 150knts and just keeps going. It seems there is just no drag on the sucker.

Unless the gear and flaps are down don't point it down, pull back the power, slow and let her come down when she feels like it.
 
Jbroz04 said:
My uncle wants to get rid his cherokee and get a v-tail becuase they are cheap to get. Anyone get the performance numbers on them like fuel burn and speed that I could give him?
Click to expand...

I think they are a pretty good "value" when you consider what they will do/comfort/efficiency with purchase price, operating costs, and classic looks. I don't think the tail will rip itself off in level flight - I think you have to get significantly haywire before pieces start falling of the airplane.
 
IMS, there were several levels of uhoh on these things. The early straight 35s have wood pieces and weak tails, and are fit only for serious collectors with lots of $$$ who are very careful. Then there was a beef up that mitigated the problem but didn't fix it. Then the 'cuffs' which supposedly solved it. This is all from faint memory. Pretty plane but I'll take a 210, thanks.
 
clayfenderstrat said:
Just a quick question for those of you who know anything about the Beechcraft Bonanza 35. I have been doing a little research on the "VEE" tail design after we talked briefly about the pros and cons of the tail in class. Is there really a safety concern with this design? It seems that the FAA issued a couple of ADs on the design, and kits were offered to reinforce the base of the tail. It earned the nickname, "The Doctor Killer" and there are many accident reports of the tail breaking up in flight. What's the deal? Is this just a stigma, or is this really an unsafe/accident prone design?

Thanks in advance for all the help--hopefully I can get some good info from you guys!
Click to expand...

If you are a competent private pilot a Bonanza should not be more than you can handle. As for safety and structural soundness, I grew up flying in(and later flying) my dad's 1955 Bonanza. Has yet to lose a tail or otherwise have structural integrity issues. Don't do stupid crap like exceeded Vne, just like you wouldn't do in any other aircraft, and you will love it. It is a very "slick" aircraft, aerodynamically speaking, so the issue is that it won't slow down as easily as some other light singles. It has a decent powerplant, so I could see how it could get away from guys without the proper training or discipline, but at the end of the day it is still a very stable, forgiving light piston airplane and shouldn't be any cause for alarm in normal operation. If you want a road trip machine that gets you from pt A to pt B in good time, then I'd look no further (at least in that price range).
 
Boris Badenov said:
IMS, there were several levels of uhoh on these things. The early straight 35s have wood pieces and weak tails, and are fit only for serious collectors with lots of $$$ who are very careful. Then there was a beef up that mitigated the problem but didn't fix it. Then the 'cuffs' which supposedly solved it. This is all from faint memory. Pretty plane but I'll take a 210, thanks.
Click to expand...

Wasn't aware of wood pieces on the Bonanza - only fabric covered flaps and ailerons on the earlier ones. Wood alone shouldn't be scary. The Bellanca's, if you find one in good shape that has been cared for, will fly circles around the Bonanza on their wood wings, and I don't thinking Bellanca's have had as many structural failures as the V-tail.

And, for the record - I like V-tails, but would never spend my own money on one - I would most certainly get its contemporary, a Cessna 195. If I was forced to get a flat-motored airplane I would get a Bellanca Cruisemaster for a traveling machine.
BellancaCruisemaster.jpg
 
There is a slight but noticeable difference in directional and lateral stability with the V configuration. The bonanza has lighter roll forces than most other light straight tailed singles, and also is a little less stable in that axis in turbulence and untrimmed flight. You will notice the yaw/directional instability a little more easily in turbulence, especially as a passenger in the back seat. Crossing the rockies in mid afternoon in the summer in a V tail bonanza is about as much turbulence as I have ever felt in any airplane, and it really manifests itself in a light but uncontrollable yawing tendency. Not uncomfortable from the front seat, but it can catch passengers in the back off-guard in moderate turbulence. I guess it could really be described as a sort of dutch roll, but of course without any of the dampers that most larger aircraft that experience traditional dutch roll have.
 
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