User Fees a good thing?
- Thread starter wzgrza
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70 flights a night x 15 sure is a bit, no denying that, but it also depends on how much money these companies pull in a night. I am assuming if there is a company that operates 70 flights in one night it is a pretty large, well off company. So if this company pulls in even 100$ off a flight, they are now pulling in 85$ off a flight. Still a good profit, obviously not AS good as before. Of course if a company has to spend more to operate they will have a lower profit margin if they don't adjust to charge the customer. Whats the problem with passing the cost on to the customer? Our costs go up, your costs go up. Simple as that. That is whats wrong with this industry, people almost forget that we are providing a service, no matter what it is. Why should the companies, or labor always be responsible for covering costs that customers should be paying. Companies exist for their customers after all.
As far as companies who need to pull in 15$ per flight to stay in buisness, how big are they? If user-fees will make the difference for these companies, it is most likely a matter of time before they go bust anyways. And to play devils advocate here, and this will sound bad. It is the survival of the fittest. If these smaller operators go out of buisness, it will leave the bigger and stronger (likely better) companies to continue functioning, expand by picking up the extra flying the other ones lose, in turn make a larger profit, and in turn perhaps pay their employees better.
As far as some of these smaller GA places lowering pilot pay to counter-act user-fees. Wouldnt surprise me one bit. Good point. But that would be the pilots fault for accepting the new wages, not user-fees fault.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I usually make about 2 to 4 landings per hour at my job. That's $30 to $60 per hr. That's my wage ($45/hr). Considering that the cost for a one way ticket to the other side of the inlet is $75, and a round trip is $150, I find it highly unlikely that we would be able to continue making money, and would have to pass that cost onto the customer.
As for the bolded, Walmart manages to survive, and I doubt that they're really consider a "better" company.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
If you consider a company with 70 flights a night a "pretty large company", you are totally clueless about small general aviation companies. When routes are making 3-4 legs (with each leg being an independently user feed charged flight), you are talking 15-20 airplanes. Would love to know your definition of a pretty large company. I worked for a company that could do 50 flights a night with four airplanes. Wow, what a huge company that was!
As far as passing the cost along to the consumer. Fine. Great. Wonderful. Why haven't the airlines thought of this to make money too?? Rather than fighting each other for the cheapest fares and losing money, why not just pass the cost along to the customer. Oh, wait, that is right. Customers want the cheapest possible to maximize their own profit margins, so when that company decides to pass along the costs, they are probably writing their own death.
Just because you are the biggest, doesn't make you the best.
Sure, whatever. Always have to make it the "pilots fault". You mention supply and demand from user fees, how it would increase wages and quality of life for all professional pilots (see your above definition). Doesn't seem like that is going to happen does it?
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Yeah, in the winter we're doing 15 flights per day during the week and ten during the weekend, that being said, during the summer we're looking at 20-40 flights per day, 5 airplanes with 5-8 flights apiece.
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
Those Cracker Jacks you ate when you got your business degree sure must've been yummy.
Chew on this for a while. Company A decides to pass the user fees along to their customers by raising their prices. You don't have to be Warren Buffet to know that company B will decide to keep their prices the same and take the user fee costs out of what they pay their pilots. As result, company A loses customers because company B now provides the same service to the customer at a cheaper price. Company A goes belly up because they don't have any business. Company B now has all the busenss so they need to expand. They hire about half the pilots laid off from company A but they pay less. So half of the company A pilots are out of a job and the other half are making less and are much farther down the seniority list than they were before. Now tell me again how user fees will be a good thing for professional pilots.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Those Cracker Jacks you ate when you got your business degree sure must've been yummy.
Chew on this for a while. Company A decides to pass the user fees along to their customers by raising their prices. You don't have to be Warren Buffet to know that company B will decide to keep their prices the same and take the user fee costs out of what they pay their pilots. As result, company A loses customers because company B now provides the same service to the customer at a cheaper price. Company A goes belly up because they don't have any business. Company B now has all the busenss so they need to expand. They hire about half the pilots laid off from company A but they pay less. So half of the company A pilots are out of a job and the other half are making less and are much farther down the seniority list than they were before. Now tell me again how user fees will be a good thing for professional pilots.
A union prevents company B from doing what you're proposing.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
And show me a small part 135 operator that has/needs a union.
Also, chew on this. Say union airline A (higher pilot pay) has to raise ticket prices to stay in business, while union airline B (lower pilot pay) does not. Passengers go for cheaper tickets, eventually airline A either has to downsize and furlough, or go out of business. Furloughed pilots go to airline B because they are expanding to cover business given up by airline A. Now they are making less money and on the bottom of a senority list. So tell me again how a union will help here?
Velocipede
New Member
Atta boy, Hacker. Too bad most of the "boys" here don't understand the concept of Duty and Honor.
And Amber...I'm not trying to convince anyone.
I'm just telling them why I SUPPORT user fees.
And Amber...I'm not trying to convince anyone.
I'm just telling them why I SUPPORT user fees.
darrenf
resident denizen
That supposed to be some kinda racist crack?
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No, just a stupid one that paints a picture of what you are dealing with.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
That supposed to be some kinda racist crack?
-mini
Are you silly? Velo is like 1,000 years old, it's obviously a young person crack.
As for merit's wish that he'd rather see airline pilots take another 20% paycut before user fees occur:
Even though I am very likely going to be flying GA when I get furloughed I would rather see the entire hobby-GA industry shutdown than see an even 1 cent concession in any contract.
See, we can both be inflamatory.
I don't know, Velo - Duty and Honor is usually humble. Much like Hacker is. Very much like Fish is.
Velocipede said:
I don't know... duty, honor, and cojones would probably involve signing up for the military regardless of earning a pilot slot or not.
darrenf
resident denizen
What do you know, boy? :hiya:
darrenf
resident denizen
That cost SHOULD be passed onto the customer, regardless if the company is making money or not. Walmart pays and treats it's workers on par with any other big super-market store. Why isnt it a good company? Being a walmart greeter does suck compared to flying. Fact. But you can only compare wal-mart to other stores of it's kind.
Those Cracker Jacks you ate when you got your business degree sure must've been yummy.
Chew on this for a while. Company A decides to pass the user fees along to their customers by raising their prices. You don't have to be Warren Buffet to know that company B will decide to keep their prices the same and take the user fee costs out of what they pay their pilots. As result, company A loses customers because company B now provides the same service to the customer at a cheaper price. Company A goes belly up because they don't have any business. Company B now has all the busenss so they need to expand. They hire about half the pilots laid off from company A but they pay less. So half of the company A pilots are out of a job and the other half are making less and are much farther down the seniority list than they were before. Now tell me again how user fees will be a good thing for professional pilots.
Because you know this is excactly the way it will play out. Good thing you have that Mr. Peabody time machine you were talking about earlier handy.. :laff:
It can also easily play out that company both A and B will pass the cost on to the customer. It can also play out that both companies will pass their costs on to the pilots, and the pilots will once again bend over. It can also play out that because of the deteriorating wages, and rising costs in training there will be less qualified pilots of the job, and to entice these pilots both companies will have to raise wages. Or company A can pass the costs to the customer, but company A is what is comfortable for the customer, and provides a good service, so the customer will continue paying these higher prices for a good product. Pilots at Company A might refuse to do the same work for lower wages, and company B will have a lack of applicants for the job. Company B in a post crisis booming industry will have a high turnover rate, and lots of attrition because it is a bottom feeding company and pilots are leaving by the masses, as better, higher paying companies are hiring. I can keep going all day long..
It's a different voice inflection.Italicizing wasn't enough??
It's like this.
What do you feed a horse? Hey.
What do you feed a gay horse? Heeey.
See what I mean?
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