User Fees a good thing?

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jtrain609 said:
Well, since you asked...

There is a cultural shift going on in this country. We've seen the results of greed in our banking system, and folks aren't going to continue to put up with it in many facets of life. They're going to latch onto this issue, if it ever becomes public (and it's not, FYI, the only people that care about this are pilots), and they're gonna say that rich pilots are nothing but free riders.

And let's face it, we are. I mean you can't be poor and own an airplane in this country. It simply costs too much to fly already. I mean people think yachts are money pits? Try a Cessna! In this day and age, if you've got the money to fly, you can afford user fee's. If user fee's put you out and make you sell your airplane, you probably couldn't afford it anyway.

This isn't 50 years ago when airplanes were much more affordable to own and operate. Even a little Cessna 150 is gonna run you as much as a BMW 5 series.
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And this, ladies and gents, is the public perception of General Aviation. (I'm assuming you're playing a bit of devil's advocate here.) This same public, if you'll recall, thinks airline pilots make six figures a year as starting pay.

But GA isn't the pervue of the rich. I got my PPL while earning less than 30k per year.
 
ShyFlyer said:
And this, ladies and gents, is the public perception of General Aviation. (I'm assuming you're playing a bit of devil's advocate here.) This same public, if you'll recall, thinks airline pilots make six figures a year as starting pay.

But GA isn't the pervue of the rich. I got my PPL while earning less than 30k per year.
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I work in GA and I barely make 20K per year.
 
Well in some countries like Cambodia there is no GA. All pilots are government/military trained and all air traffic is military or major airline.

Out side of all the social and political reprecussions blah blah blah if Part 91 ceased in the US (including flight training which would ruin everything) how much would air traffic in the US decrease?

Its not a rhetorical question I'm honestly asking because I don't know the answer if there is one...

The way I see it, if we must implement user fees... FINE, DO IT. But tack user fees on to everyones bill, not just Part 91 GA.:D
 
I love how airlines target the GA/Corporate world...seems that if they can't get those customers back (post 9/11), then we should tax the hell out of'em.

However, if you go to any major airport...say Atlanta for instance...if you watch the number of mainline airplanes to "regional" airplanes...it's obvious that there are just as many mainline as there are "RJ's".

When you have 5 different airlines flying regional routes (even though I can't figure out how ATL-BILLINGS, MT is a regional route)...and you've got 20 RJ's in line out of 30...

You get the point right? Airlines want to blame GA for the problems that scheduling creates...too many airplanes trying to get into the same airspace, at the same time...

Must be those dang GA planes running around everywhere :sarcasm:
 
Velocipede said:
Seriously, its too easy to tweak you GA types. You want to play? Pay.
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You never had to pay money to learn how to fly, you did your time and got out, for the rest of us non-military types, this flying stuff can get pretty expensive. When was the last time you ever rented an airplane?
 
Velocipede said:
Seriously, its too easy to tweak you GA types. You want to play? Pay.
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And it can also be said that you "military types" don't have a clue about GA. You have a very fierce position about something you didn't do (ratings, learning to fly via GA).
 
Velocipede said:
A lot of ag pilots dusting IFR? OR in terminal airspace? How's that work anyway?

Ipso facto, an irrelevant argument.
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First off, nothing has been dusted in this country in a looonnngg time. Most applications are highly researched and selective liquid products. Get your terms straight.

Let's see, according to the NAAA, they (after much, much lobbying) were finally able to get the US Senate to agree to exempt ag operations from a $25 per flight user fee. Now, you are thinking that doesn't sound so bad... Let me put it this way... $25 per flight per airplane during fertilizer season will cost an applicator almost $4000 per week! Keep in mind that fertilizer season can last several weeks to over a month (depending on acreage and percentage of total crops that require it). Throw in cotton production during the rainy season when tractors physically can't get to the field, and all of a sudden, you are looking at thousands of dollars added to the cost of applying much needed fertilizer, insecticides, fungicides, and herbicides. Pass that along to the farmer, who now has to sell his crop at a higher market price to break even, those market prices are passed on to the consumer. Yeah, it's relevant. A whole lot more relevant to the entire US economy than you think.
 
Velocipede said:
Seriously, its too easy to tweak you GA types. You want to play? Pay.
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Whole lot easier to "pass the buck" along when you have lots of paying passengers than when you are just going to visit grandma for the weekend. Every think about it that way?
 
MQAAord said:
And it can also be said that you "military types" don't have a clue about GA. You have a very fierce position about something you didn't do (ratings, learning to fly via GA).
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Just because someone went to Uncle Sam's flight school doesn't mean they didn't learn to fly via General Aviation or do GA flying on the side.

In fact, there are many USAF pilots who went through FBO-administered screening programs, both in the late 80s and again in the early 00s, before ever putting their butt in a military airplane.

I had my Private years before the AF taught me to fly, and I've flown GA aircraft outside of work ever since then.
 
OldTownPilot said:
How many times have you failed to realize that GA pays through fuel taxes that airlines don't pay?

:banghead: You, sir, are becoming ridiculous
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He is just flamebaitin'

Notice he never has an argument to user fees? He just likes to throw one-liners out there to stir the pot.
 
Hacker15e said:
Just because someone went to Uncle Sam's flight school doesn't mean they didn't learn to fly via General Aviation or do GA flying on the side.

In fact, there are many USAF pilots who went through FBO-administered screening programs, both in the late 80s and again in the early 00s, before ever putting their butt in a military airplane.

I had my Private years before the AF taught me to fly, and I've flown GA aircraft outside of work ever since then.
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My comment was really more aimed at Velo specifically.... certainly many (but not all) military folks do have GA experience.
 
ryanmickG said:
He is just flamebaitin'

Notice he never has an argument to user fees? He just likes to throw one-liners out there to stir the pot.
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I know, but it wold be a staggering number if he did answer the question.

I guess, emotional, uneducated one liners are too irresistible to reply too. Sadly I think thats what he is trying for. Stir the pot, piss people off etc.
 
ShyFlyer said:
And this, ladies and gents, is the public perception of General Aviation. (I'm assuming you're playing a bit of devil's advocate here.) This same public, if you'll recall, thinks airline pilots make six figures a year as starting pay.

But GA isn't the pervue of the rich. I got my PPL while earning less than 30k per year.
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No real devils advocate here.

I think you're confusing people that make a living through flying airplanes for a living, be it at an airline or flight instructing, and people that fly recreationally

Folks that just fly around for fun, for the most part, are fairly well off. Do you know what the target demographic for magazines like Flying and Plane and Pilot are?

I can tell you, it's not us.
 
ppragman said:
You never had to pay money to learn how to fly, you did your time and got out, for the rest of us non-military types, this flying stuff can get pretty expensive. When was the last time you ever rented an airplane?
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I don't. And that's the point. You want to pursue GA as a hobby, pay for it.

MQAAord said:
And it can also be said that you "military types" don't have a clue about GA. You have a very fierce position about something you didn't do (ratings, learning to fly via GA).
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No, but it effects me every day. Last night, for instance, as SNA, we were kept waiting for departure so a couple GA airplanes could launch. User fees are a good idea if only to keep the bug smashers away from the flying public.

Its one thing to deal with light planes in Alaska where most of the guys know what they're doing. Its a whole different story trying to operate safely in an environment filled with GA trainees with their heads up and locked. Seriously, SNA is the most dangerous airport on my system simply because there are so many GA airplanes milling about aimlessly. Add in the monkeys in their Pitts Specials doing touch and goes on the adjacent runway and someday the stuff is going to hit the fan.

ctab5060X said:
Whole lot easier to "pass the buck" along when you have lots of paying passengers than when you are just going to visit grandma for the weekend. Every think about it that way?
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Of course it is. You have your agenda, I have mine. Buy an airline ticket if you want to "go see Grandma." And, if you want to fly yourself for free use an out of the way GA airport and go VFR. Seems simple enough to me.

But, if you're a fatcat and want to fly your family/friends somewhere in your Citation X, pay for the privilege. You can afford it.

Likewise if you're a FLAP and just want to tool over to Santa Paula for a burger, go VFR. Otherwise pay for it. You can afford it too.

Face facts, kids. Aviation is expensive. You want to play, you'll just have to prune some of your other expenses to participate. I can't afford it, so I don't do it.

OldTownPilot said:
I guess, emotional, uneducated one liners are too irresistible to reply to.
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There's plenty of that on both sides of the issue. BTW, I corrected your spelling. I guess you were too upset to differentiate between to and too.

Anyway, it is evident that the mere suggestion of user fees is enough to rattle a LOT of cages. Sorry if the truth hurts, but GA IS a rich man's sport. And if you want free flight training, I guess the only other option is to nut up and go down and visit the Air Force/ANG/Navy/Army/Coast Guard recruiter. That's the decision I made so long ago.

If you aren't brave, strong, tough or good enough to seek that option, that's a YOU problem. Then you're just going to have to scrape together a little more dough and buy your licenses.

Some of us paid a LOT more than money to get ours.
 
Velocipede said:
Some of us paid a LOT more than money to get ours.
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But they [the licenses] say the same thing, don't they. ;)

Your way is not necessarily any "better" than anyone else's, and while we appreciate a bit more explanation in your most recent post, it still comes across as an emotional rant.

You don't like GA. That's okay, that's your right to not like whatever you want. But GA is there, and you have to deal with it. Or just don't bid SNA :) I don't like stupid people on the road with me, but they're there every day when I get in my truck with my kids. I just do my best to worry about myself and driving my own vehicle in the best manner to avoid injury to everyone. It's worked out pretty well all-in-all.
 
jtrain609 said:
There is a cultural shift going on in this country. We've seen the results of greed in our banking system, and folks aren't going to continue to put up with it in many facets of life. They're going to latch onto this issue, if it ever becomes public (and it's not, FYI, the only people that care about this are pilots), and they're gonna say that rich pilots are nothing but free riders.
Click to expand...

At least there's one other voice on this board who understands!

And let's face it, we are. I mean you can't be poor and own an airplane in this country. It simply costs too much to fly already. I mean people think yachts are money pits? Try a Cessna! In this day and age, if you've got the money to fly, you can afford user fee's. If user fee's put you out and make you sell your airplane, you probably couldn't afford it anyway.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:EXACTLY!!! :yeahthat:

This isn't 50 years ago when airplanes were much more affordable to own and operate. Even a little Cessna 150 is gonna run you as much as a BMW 5 series.
Click to expand...

Careful, train. You're going to be as unpopular as I am.

Sorry if I seem unsympathetic to the Anti-fee crowd. Its only because I am.
 
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