PeterPilot
New Member
Where would that GA caused traffic jam be?
User Fees a good thing?
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OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Not all professional pilots fly for airlines.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Many places. One example Vail, CO. An airliner with 200+ people in it waiting #20 in line behind GA aircraft.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Anyways in a GA traffic jam, airplanes burn more fuel, pay more fuel tax, gubment gets more green.
ShyFlyer
CAP Member
Well, the world doesn't and shouldn't revolve around the airlines.
If you sole goal is to reduce the pool of pilots, increase the minimums for the certificates. Raise the hiring minimums for 135 and 121 carriers. That would be far better for the airline industry.
A user fee scheme would necessitate a new government bureaucracy and decimate an entire industry (bye bye Piper & Cirrus) and hurt businesses that rely on GA to move people and goods.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Plus I guarantee 50% of the revenue from the fees will be used to collect the fees. :crazy:
darrenf
resident denizen
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
Any one airline... But how many regionals and airlines are there? According APC I count at least 45 US based carriers (regional/legacy/national etc) So if GA is only a small percentage of passenger traffic compared to 121 air carriers... they why should they foot the bill?
Remember its not about airspace so much as runway space. Dozens (if not hundreds of aircraft) jockeying for a smidgen of time to land or take off on a strip of pavement like moths to a flame.
And once a 121 carrier moves into an airport its aircraft are generally given priority over most other traffic even though theres supposed to be a first come first serve rule. How many GA aircraft are operating out of ATL, JFK, LGA or LAX? Nothing smaller than the Pilatuses I flew and we could easily keep our speed to 160 with the other guys... so were we another aircraft to deal with? YES. But NO more of a clog than any other DAL, CAL, or United 737.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Spend some time researching the subject on PPRUNE and see how things are in Europe.
The basic premise of your statement is completely out to lunch; professional pilots in other comparable countries DO NOT get paid or treated better when taken in the larger context of where they live and what the cost of living is there.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Just because other countries do it does not mean it is inevitable in the US.
Regardless. It works same way for corporate. More corporate jobs, less pilots available. If an employer needs employees, they will entice them with better working conditions and wages. Works the same for airlines as well as corporate.
Not completely out of lunch. What countries are you thinking of? What legacies treat their employees better then their counter parts? How much paid time off do you get? I get 5 vacation days a year.. pathetic to some of our Euroland counter parts for example get 20 or more personal days a year. Hold a reserve line for 3 years in a row?? Nope - Most carriers have rosters where everyone gets a normal schedule montly, regardless of seniority, with maybe 5 reserve days a month each.
Not to mention there is no regional system in most countries like here in the U.S. You can get hired by the major in your country fly ERJs and ATRs there, get paid AT LEAST fairly, and you are on one seniority list. Job security.. I don't see airlines in Europe, even now in this crisis laying off nearly as much and at the rate as here in the U.S or even as frequently, crisis, no crisis.
Your pilot group not happy with pay or working conditions? Management doing a number on you completely? You wanna strike? Go ahead, you can seek self-help in most countries. Here you have to either bend over and take it, or quit.
They pay more for their licences, it is a harder goal to achieve, and therefore get compensated better for it when they finally make it. Pilots in other countries flying similar equipment to mine get paid almost 2x as much as I do, and treated better. Don't even have to look much farther then north in what is Air Canada. Not gonna see guys in Europe for example flying 76 seat + aircraft for McDonalds worker wages. Pilot profession is much more respected elsewhere around the world outside of the U.S. You can tell when talking to the public, pilots. Here you are a glorified bus driver. In other parts of the world, you are still a pilot and have a respected position.
The only bitching you hear on pprune is about RYR for the most part. Half of the threads there are about them.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
No, it really doesn't. Employees are both added and shed, just like pilots. The difference is that non-pilot employees can be promoted on merit. Airline pilots cannot be.
What you say makes sense only - and ONLY - when there are more jobs than skilled workers to fill them for the wage offered.
Velocipede's statement about supply and demand - however un-nuanced - is fundamentally accurate.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Talking about Vail and other airports that GA and Airlines share...if you do a quick check of Airnav, 47% of the traffic is transient GA, 7% local GA and only 12% is Commercial.
If you take into account that Vail is a GA airport that the airlines happen to provide service into (in which they pay landing/parking fees and taxes on the gas they buy)...why are you worried about being number 20 for departure?
At Horizon we fly into Santa Rosa, CA...Santa Rosa is a General Aviation airport...so yes, we do have to fly in a pattern with GA aircraft...and you just deal with it...they have as much right to that airspace as you do. Just because you're in an "airliner" doesn't mean that you're any more important than the guy in a 172. He paid his money for the gas that's in the airplane he's flying. Just like the customers on our plane paid for their tickets.
If the airlines don't want to "deal" with GA...then don't fly into the same airports! If I don't want to pay higher fuel cost and higher landing fees/parking fees...then I don't fly my C310 into ATL.
In case you've missed it, just because they do something in Europe...doesn't make it right
Government Health Care doesn't work there...it won't work here...just like user fees...put that in your pipe and smoke it :bandit:
If you take into account that Vail is a GA airport that the airlines happen to provide service into (in which they pay landing/parking fees and taxes on the gas they buy)...why are you worried about being number 20 for departure?
At Horizon we fly into Santa Rosa, CA...Santa Rosa is a General Aviation airport...so yes, we do have to fly in a pattern with GA aircraft...and you just deal with it...they have as much right to that airspace as you do. Just because you're in an "airliner" doesn't mean that you're any more important than the guy in a 172. He paid his money for the gas that's in the airplane he's flying. Just like the customers on our plane paid for their tickets.
If the airlines don't want to "deal" with GA...then don't fly into the same airports! If I don't want to pay higher fuel cost and higher landing fees/parking fees...then I don't fly my C310 into ATL.
In case you've missed it, just because they do something in Europe...doesn't make it right
Government Health Care doesn't work there...it won't work here...just like user fees...put that in your pipe and smoke it :bandit:
No arguements here. That is the whole point of the thread, that user fees may help create the situation you just posted above. To an extent of course. Whether it will be enough to actually make a noticable difference will only be known after the fact.
In case you've missed it, just because they do something in Europe...doesn't make it right
I'm not saying user fees are right or wrong. All I am saying is that if it goes through, perhaps it will benefit the pilot profession by lowering the amount of pilots entering the industry. Back to supply and demand.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
More importantly, which European "legacies" are you thinking of? Your comparison simply mentioned a couple work rules -- nothing of the overall pay and compensation scheme.
The fact is, European airline pilots aren't significantly better or worse off than US pilots.
Where do you get that there are no regionals in Europe? Based on the travel distances over here, the vast majority of the airlines ARE regionals. In fact, the way that airlines are categorized in the US as legacies, majors, nationals, regionals, etc, can't be applied to European airlines to make an apples-vs-apples comparison.
They also didn't have the massive hiring boom in 2007.
Fair comparison, but that has everything to do with laws. There are a lot of other laws in Europe that I want nothing to do with -- I'd much rather have the US system.
Their cost of living is also probably twice as much as yours. They also probably live in a smaller house and drive a smaller car than you...and paid a lot more for it (currency exchange value notwithstanding). How much tax do they pay compared to you? Again, not a fair comparison -- you can't work in Europe and live in America.
I see a lot of professional pilots lament how much better things are for the pilot profession in Europe, but most of that is based on some idea of what they think things might be like over here. There is rarely a well thought out understanding of the complete picture.
PeterPilot
New Member
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
Particularly the CFI and ATP.
.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
FYI, unless you're inside the marker doing 160, a CRJ is still looking at a 20-40 kt overtake on you. Approach speed at max weight is 142. Flaps 30 speed is 160, so a CRJ is flying flaps 30 just to maintain separation on a 160 kt Pilatus.
I'm not sure if user fees are the answer, and I certainly like SOME sort of minimum requirements for 121 flying. As it is, there really isn't any past the Part 61 requirements to attain certificates. Question is, once it's decided to actually go forward with it, how long is it gonna take? 135 rest requirements have been getting "fixed" for a LOOOOOONG time now. Add to that the airline will throw every once of money and lobbying power they have to keep from having minimums tacked on to 121 flying. Majors probably won't care, but the regionals will since they know they'll finally have to increase pay just to get people with the minimums to apply.
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