CFIscare
Well-Known Member
The East F/O's would have upgraded long before the West F/O's. If anything, the AWA are taking the upgrades away from the East pilots.
uSAPa begins destruction of USAirways
- Thread starter SlumTodd_Millionaire
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The East F/O's would have upgraded long before the West F/O's. If anything, the AWA are taking the upgrades away from the East pilots.
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
round and round we go, the east took upgrades, no the west took the upgrades...
We need a national seniority list. This is the only industry where no matter how much experience you have you start at the bottom if you decide to search out a better QOL somewhere else. I know this isn't exactly what this thread is about but it would help tremendously in these situations. You don't like the company/merger/qol then you can go somewhere else without the facts of being stuck at the bottom of a seniority list. It sucks that there are tons of good people that are stuck at jobs they have come to hate because of seniority. I know its a fact of life but it really blows.
We need a national seniority list. This is the only industry where no matter how much experience you have you start at the bottom if you decide to search out a better QOL somewhere else. I know this isn't exactly what this thread is about but it would help tremendously in these situations. You don't like the company/merger/qol then you can go somewhere else without the facts of being stuck at the bottom of a seniority list. It sucks that there are tons of good people that are stuck at jobs they have come to hate because of seniority. I know its a fact of life but it really blows.
that really would fix all the problems and solidify the industry.
I mean, you could have a seniority number for a particular airline and then a national seniority list number on top of that specifically for things like this so you know exactly where you fall industry wide.
I mean, you could have a seniority number for a particular airline and then a national seniority list number on top of that specifically for things like this so you know exactly where you fall industry wide.
KLB
Well-Known Member
I love to see a national seniority list in the airlines. It wouldn't be good for me though because I work a at little non union cargo company. That would mean that, even if hired by a major, I'd constantly get bumped by someone who has less flying experience than I but has been working at an union regional. I'd really be taking one for the team on that note. I guess that would be punishment for working at a non union company.
Integrating all of those pilots onto a single list would be difficult also. Who would be more senior? The guy who is now a 747 captain with a DOH of 04/18/1979 or the guy who now a 737 captain with a DOH of 04/18/1979 and how can you justify it? This is the types of questions that make forming a national seniority list difficult.
Integrating all of those pilots onto a single list would be difficult also. Who would be more senior? The guy who is now a 747 captain with a DOH of 04/18/1979 or the guy who now a 737 captain with a DOH of 04/18/1979 and how can you justify it? This is the types of questions that make forming a national seniority list difficult.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Like others here. I am definitely in support of a NSL!
In your above scenario the breakdown would be simple. Just like the seniority breakdown in a typical newhire class (all DOH's are the same....so, to determine the seniority w/in the class....DOB is used). Oldest person is the most senior person in the class since they'll be forced to retire first.....the youngest is the most junior since they've got the most time available w/in the class.
NSL should be accomplished sooner rather than later. Yeah, it would certainly be a mess in the short term. But, everyone around complains about short-sightedness of the pilot groups. Well, what a serious solution. We have one in the NSL......just have to get the ball rolling. Yep, people are going to take their lumps....but in the long term the industry will prosper for it. Isn't this what we're trying to accomplish, after all???????
MHO!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That still creates a lot of problems, because you'll end up with different arguments. The NWA guys would argue that their DC-9 fleet is equivalent to DAL's MD-88 fleet (after all, same type rating), but the DAL guys would argue that their -88s pay more and have a few more seats, so they would want it to be categorized differently. No matter which angle you try to work, you'll always have vast differences in opinions on how the list should merge. In the case of DAL/NWA, it's not even just about aircraft and pay, because the NWA guys claim that their pay is artificially lower because they paid for their pension plan with their payrates. So, they would claim that the 747 is a completely separate category that the DAL guys shouldn't be able to hold, even though DAL's 777s pay more. It's all extremely complicated. There's no one-size-fits-all approach to making it work. You might see different portions of the list ratio'd at different rates, even. That's one possible idea I've heard in the DAL/NWA case.
No, the East FOs wouldn't have upgraded before anyone, because they wouldn't even have a job if the West didn't come along and save their company. Have you read the Nicolau award?
I agree. The question is how to make it happen. No one has a viable plan.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Its all very simple see. The Airways (merged) pilots have a choice -
1. Keep your JOB
2. Be out on the street
I understand the frustration with the merger, but guess what? Either you keep your job or you tank your company and end up on the street. We'll see what happens. I'm tired of the doom and gloom, I'm playin Xbox.
1. Keep your JOB
2. Be out on the street
I understand the frustration with the merger, but guess what? Either you keep your job or you tank your company and end up on the street. We'll see what happens. I'm tired of the doom and gloom, I'm playin Xbox.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Gotcha!
With pilots being the selfish beings that many of us are....I'm a bit worried that a NSL can't be pulled off. I don't believe that the word compromise is in our aviation dictionary. There's not even an acronym for it.
wouldn't a viable plan of a national seniority list simply be by date of hire into a unionized airline?
and if there's an airline that isn't unionized that does vote to be unionized, then their dates of hire would be merged among everyone else's regardless.
I'm sure that there's a solution....the problem is is that not everyone will be happy with the outcome and with that, you have to try to minimize the pain but realize there's is going to be *some* pain to deal with which cant' be avoided.
and if there's an airline that isn't unionized that does vote to be unionized, then their dates of hire would be merged among everyone else's regardless.
I'm sure that there's a solution....the problem is is that not everyone will be happy with the outcome and with that, you have to try to minimize the pain but realize there's is going to be *some* pain to deal with which cant' be avoided.
Velocipede
New Member
A NSL already exists. Its called your ALPA number. You're issued it when you go to work for you first ALPA carrier. It never changes.
Use that as a baseline for the NSL.
Then the merger/frag policy is simple:
1. No bump/flush
2. Merge lists by ALPA number.
Non-ALPA carrier pilots get put on the bottom of the list and issued ALPA numbers.
Use that as a baseline for the NSL.
Then the merger/frag policy is simple:
1. No bump/flush
2. Merge lists by ALPA number.
Non-ALPA carrier pilots get put on the bottom of the list and issued ALPA numbers.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I think so, but you'd be amazed at how many people disagree. Get a group of 3 union leaders together and bring up the subject, and all 3 will have completely different ideas about how to form an NSL and none of them will budge. Seniority is just such a sacred subject for pilots that it's incredibly difficult to get any of them to agree on anything. That's why arbitration is almost always necessary in mergers.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
That's exactly right. Not everyone will be happy....but, how is that any different than any of the 'integration messes' going on in the industry now? The sooner we get the NSL instituted, the sooner these acquisition/ mergers will go more smoothly for everyone with their seniority integration. NSL should remove all debate over who is more senior than who.
We can continue to stick our collective heads in a hole....or, we can deal with the situation. But, it's seems to me, it is much better to whine about seniority than move forward to solve the problems. It's been said before, and I'll say it again.....we're our own worst enemy. Too many me, Me, ME's out there and not enough us, Us, US. To truly improve our bargaining power, we need to stop fighting between pilots and shift the focus between labor and mgmt. Easier said than done? Maybe so. But, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be undertaken.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Some of you guys are a forgetting a big element of a National Seniority List: management's approval. Seniority rights have to be negotiated separately with each airline. ALPA doesn't just get to decide what an NSL would look like. What would management demand in order to accept an NSL? Most likely, massive pay and work-rule cuts, far exceeding anything that the 9/11 concessions brought us. In other words, are you willing to accept $40/hr in the right seat of a 767 just to secure an NSL? That's what it would really come down to.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, hadn't considered that. I can see where that would cause a problem. Although, I still believe an NSL would still improve the industry, overall. I'm not saying I agree w/ massive concessions to achieve it.....but there has to be a better way than what we've got now. All in in-fighting is certainly counterproductive (AAA/AWA....perfect example) and it's unfortunate we're wasting resources fighting ourselves when our real fight is with mgmt.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat::yeahthat:
This seniority stuff is EXTREMELY complicated. The NSL is a great idea but from what I see its practically impossible to assemble. Like PCL said, AWA/AAA are having enough trouble integrating can't imagine 70,000. From day one we've heard Seniority is everything because it is. Pilots take their seniority very personally. You mess with a pilot's captain slot, widebody slot, weekends off slot etc you're starting WWIII. Personally I don't think there can ever be a completely fair integration. More like a "almost fair" integration or a "this list doesn't screw over as many pilots" integration. However it seems like the mentality of many pilots is that they'll rather see the company burn to the ground than have their seniority affected negatively in the slightest way. Its that personal. "Full pay til the last day" They're not kidding....
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
So why not have ALPA at the highest level hold a vote involving all ALPA carriers and pilots on possible ways of implementing a master seniority list? I understand what everyone is saying about there never being a solution everyone likes but sometimes, thats the way it happens. At least it happens in a democratic way. Not everyone agrees on politicians but eventually, everyone gets over it. And if they don't perform because they want to throw a hissy fit, get rid of them for disrupting productivity. I don't know, Just a thought/question, but I'm nobody
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I would not support a NSL if it would allow someone who was at a non-union company to come and hop into place when they become a union, or when they goto a union company because their DOH was prior to my DOH at a union carrier.
Nope, sorry.
They knowingly accepted a job at a non-union carrier, and then a few years down the road that carrier is either unionized or they leave that company for a union shop and get to jump in line?
I don't know, I see many things wrong with that.
On that notion, a Skybus guy who was hired 10 months prior to myself, could then find work at a union shop (ugh) and then have 10 months worth of seniority ahead of my self? Simply because he went to a non-union shop first?
I know many of us are not that shortsighted, so what gives? Why support that type of list?
Or are we going off of one's first DOH at any 121 operator?
Nope, sorry.
They knowingly accepted a job at a non-union carrier, and then a few years down the road that carrier is either unionized or they leave that company for a union shop and get to jump in line?
I don't know, I see many things wrong with that.
On that notion, a Skybus guy who was hired 10 months prior to myself, could then find work at a union shop (ugh) and then have 10 months worth of seniority ahead of my self? Simply because he went to a non-union shop first?
I know many of us are not that shortsighted, so what gives? Why support that type of list?
Or are we going off of one's first DOH at any 121 operator?
VF-213
New Member
I'm new to this forum so a hello to everyone. Not being a member of ALPA or working for US/HP I have no dog in this fight. A few points if I may....
From what I know about the "Nic" award I don't see how granting 3 years for every one year on the job is fair - perhaps someone could enlighten me.
If US was dead and buried as some suggest here, why is it that the East side is generating all the revenue, seems that HP is the lead weight.
Growth at US is on their international side (possible survival)... from the East. I can't think off the top of my head anyone that flies more European destinations than US.
Finally, I'm not sure why if you don't work for US/HP or you want to slam any group... I'd like to see both groups work things out, hopefully for the betterment of all pilots - irrespective of who represents them.
From what I know about the "Nic" award I don't see how granting 3 years for every one year on the job is fair - perhaps someone could enlighten me.
If US was dead and buried as some suggest here, why is it that the East side is generating all the revenue, seems that HP is the lead weight.
Growth at US is on their international side (possible survival)... from the East. I can't think off the top of my head anyone that flies more European destinations than US.
Finally, I'm not sure why if you don't work for US/HP or you want to slam any group... I'd like to see both groups work things out, hopefully for the betterment of all pilots - irrespective of who represents them.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
There's an old saying among ALPA reps: "You know you've done a good job of integrating seniority lists if both sides are pissed off equally." That's about as good as an SLI gets, unfortunately.
Even the reps at the highest level can't agree on how to implement an NSL. Look at a governing body like the Executive Council. These are the big dogs. The EVPs. These are the guys that the ALPA President has to go to to get approval for things. But look at how many different reps are EVPs: each legacy carrier plus FedEx has their own EVP, plus several EVPs come from the B-carriers and one from the C-carriers to represent Canadian pilots. Do you think the FedEx EVP is going to agree with the NWA EVP about how to set up an NSL? Do you think the Group B-1 EVP that represents mostly regional carriers is going to agree with the UAL EVP? Sorry, just ain't gonna happen. They'll all have different priorities about how to get it done. And nothing gets done without the approval of the EVPs. And that doesn't even get into the Executive Board which has the MEC Chairman from every single ALPA carrier as a member.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That's not what was done on the Nic award. Pilots were merged based on percentage. If you were 50% on your old list, you're 50% on the new combined list. Years of service are irrelevant to seniority.
There's not such thing as the "East side" anymore. That's a paper tiger argument that a lot of the former USAirways pilots like to use. There simply isn't "East revenue" to be measured. All revenue is pooled, and all routes feed each other. The routes that were formerly flown by the old USAirways to Europe are now receiving far more feed from what used to be America West. Without the combined operation, what you consider the "East side" wouldn't be turning any profit whatsoever. They are both linked together in terms of revenue and profit, even though the pilot groups still remain separate. Their own CEO admitted it: USAirways would not have survived another month without the America West merger.