US Airways Pilot Keeps American Pilots Off His Jumpseat

[SpiceWeasel]

I agree that is bullcrap. But if it is, WHY are you on here bitching about it instead of making an uproar with your elected reps and force them to go after the company over this?

I didn't know about it until I was told by the new Mesaba safety reps.

Of course the Pinnacle union ASAP reps trying to save face have been spreading crew room rumors about how Mesaba guys gutted the protections.

Pinnacle guys state we had the best program in industry, Mesaba guys state we had the worst. Love it.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Did they attempt to pull FOQA data? Did the safety department hand data over to them?

They went to the source of the FOQA download - the flights MX computers. They got around "FOQA" by not using it.

Had our safety department been on top of it we would have known about the breach in trust.

 

[derg]

Our company used ASAP and FOQA data to go after a crew once, we shut down the program until we were able to make it clear that data collection is for safety purposes, not disciplinary reasons.

My tussle with the FAA came during the shutdown of our ASAP program, but representation lobbied to have the situation handled as if we were still participating in ASAP and had filed the appropriate paperwork.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

They went to the source of the FOQA download - the flights MX computers. They got around "FOQA" by not using it.

Well that's a different story then. It probably was out of the hands of the safety department, as they only "own" the data collected for FOQA. Also, depending on how your contract is written, the CPs may have been within their rights to gather that data from the Mx system. At my old company that wouldn't have been possible because Mx didn't have their own independent ability to process flight data and look for those types of anomalies. In fact, Safety did most of FDR processing when a hard landing or other Mx issue was reported prior to returning a plane to service.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Our company used ASAP and FOQA data to go after a crew once, we shut down the program until we were able to make it clear that data collection is for safety purposes, not disciplinary reasons.

My tussle with the FAA came during the shutdown of our ASAP program, but representation lobbied to have the situation handled as if we were still participating in ASAP and had filed the appropriate paperwork.

Yeah the DL example is an industry cautionary tale...

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Well that's a different story then. It probably was out of the hands of the safety department, as they only "own" the data collected for FOQA. Also, depending on how your contract is written, the CPs may have been within their rights to gather that data from the Mx system. At my old company that wouldn't have been possible because Mx didn't have their own independent ability to process flight data and look for those types of anomalies. In fact, Safety did most of FDR processing when a hard landing or other Mx issue was reported prior to returning a plane to service.

However, a good safety department would have shut down and refused further business until the breach had been corrected.

Otherwise there is no point to FOQA/ASAP.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

However, a good safety department would have shut down and refused further business until the breach had been corrected.

Otherwise there is no point to FOQA/ASAP.

Agreed. Flight ops may not have let safety know about it until it was too late. These stories tend to have lots of details missing too.

At XJT (CRJ side) no electronic data may be used for discipline unless it is gathered as part of an independent investigation. So if there's an investigation first, flight ops can request flight data from the aircraft, but that flight data must NOT be already downloaded for FOQA. In other words, they have to request a new download.

Data cannot be used to start an investigation, but it can be used if an independent investigation was started.

This might work like this...

An FO goes to the CPO and claims a captain rolled an aircraft while on an empty ferry flight. Flight Ops would want to investigate to corroborate his story, and request a download to see if the airplane rolled. The data would be downloaded by Mx, and processed by safety. The requested flight would be analyzed, animated, and presented to flight operations. At no time would they get raw data, or the ability to "filter" through the flight looking for stuff.

That's how it worked there, and that was fairly rare.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

No. I think you need to read some. That's not what that means.

And it is a good philosophy. It's the idea behind our entire Federal system of government, including the US Constitution.

Wrong. Our system of government protects the minority from infringement on their freedoms, while allowing the majority to make decisions. Unions are exactly the same. The majority gets to decide, as long as the decisions that they make are not "arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith."

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

Wrong. Our system of government protects the minority from infringement on their freedoms, while allowing the majority to make decisions. Unions are exactly the same. The majority gets to decide, as long as the decisions that they make are not "arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith."

Dude. Google "tyranny of the majority." You clearly don't understand the phrase. Our Constitution is based upon that principle. (That the majority, unchecked, will overrun the minority much like a dictator.)

I never said that the minority should be able to force its will on the majority. YOU are the one who put those words in my mouth. You can't make crap up and then refute your own steaming pile of crap in a later post.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Dude. Google "tyranny of the majority." You clearly don't understand the phrase. Our Constitution is based upon that principle. (That the majority, unchecked, will overrun the minority much like a dictator.)

I never said that the minority should be able to force its will on the majority. YOU are the one who put those words in my mouth. You can't make crap up and then refute your own steaming pile of crap in a later post.

You're the one with the steaming pile of crap, pretending that a majority electing the representatives that they want is "tyranny of the majority." Checks and balances are already in place in the law to prevent tyranny of the majority in labor unions.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

You're the one with the steaming pile of crap, pretending that a majority electing the representatives that they want is "tyranny of the majority." Checks and balances are already in place in the law to prevent tyranny of the majority in labor unions.

Democracy in a union works fine as long as:

1. The entire group votes.
2. The entire group is interested and is connected to what's going on.

If those things don't happen, a small group can gain control of the union by having a "majority" of the votes, but that don't represent the majority of the pilots. If only 100 people vote in a pilot group of 2600, bad things can happen.

My reference to tyranny of the majority was mostly tongue-in-cheek.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Democracy in a union works fine as long as:

1. The entire group votes.
2. The entire group is interested and is connected to what's going on.

If those things don't happen, a small group can gain control of the union by having a "majority" of the votes, but that don't represent the majority of the pilots. If only 100 people vote in a pilot group of 2600, bad things can happen.

If people don't vote, then they don't care. If they don't care, then their opinion shouldn't matter. Regardless, the union still has a duty of fair representation under the law to everyone, no matter who does or doesn't vote.

My reference to tyranny of the majority was mostly tongue-in-cheek.

I don't think so.