US Airways flight attendants spoke up - and face trial

[deadstick]

Unknown to the flight attendants, Calgary Airport had filed an irregularity report as well, as ground staff had observed contamination of the wings and approached the flight crew asking, whether de-icing would be needed and received a blunt no.

Wouldn't this add weight to the FAs' assertions that something was amiss?

 

[Cptnchia]

USAir seems to be an incredibly gutless company. Corporate has not seemed to take a side in the East vs. West battle, they don't back up the FA's who are being sued by a pilot, they don't give the crew credit for the Hudson ditching (at least the initial press conference) and I am sure the list would go on.

You know how Capt. Sullenberger got home to Cali? On Delta. LCC wouldn't give him a positive space pass, so Delta offered PS passes to all the crew to get home. They also accommodated any of the passengers that wanted to fly on Delta.

How do I know this? Got a friend who works in OCC, and Sully called the Duty pilots to have them thank Delta for taking care of his crew and passengers.

 

[blee256]

If not, shut up and get me some coffee........... I don't tell you how to use the galley, don't tell me how to fly the plane.

Wow....can I fly with you? can I!!

 

[SoCalAprch]

The Captain to this day still has the final say, and I believe in this concept. He is in command of the aircraft and bears the ultimate responsibility.

I disagree with your ultimate responsibility statement.

Shared responsibility with the Captain having final authority.

Heard of many accidents in the airline industry where only the Captain got violated? Suspended? Lost his ticket? I haven't... Sure the final authority lies with the Captain but it is the FOs shared responsibility for the safe outcome of a flight. Try explaining that one if you take off on a wrong runway and only the FO lives. "Well it was his responsibility." Im sure the FAA would love that one.

Also thought it was interesting that the Airport staff wrote an irregularity report because they noticed contamination on the wings and the pilots said they wouldn't be getting de-iced.

 

[SoCalAprch]

Are you $*#&ing kidding me? I confess I've never gone through Flight Attendant training, so maybe there's a unit in there on complex aerodynamics and ice detection. If not, shut up and get me some coffee. Crew concept is great, but I think it's generally meant to appliy to people trained to be part of the crew for the task at hand. How far does this go? Should doctors make sure the orderlies agree with their diagnosis? Engineers defer to draftsmen? Flight Attendants are professionals, too, and part of being a professional is recognizing what your duties are and aren't. I don't tell you how to use the galley, don't tell me how to fly the plane.

Are you $*#&ing kidding me? If that plane would have taken off and crashed at the end of the runway you would be singing a completely different tune.

Wow....can I fly with you? can I!!

Exactly what I was thinking.


Granted I wasn't there but if the FAs and the ground crew saw contaminated wings and the pilots refused then they are the idiots. If a flight attendant ever has a problem I always tell them to speak up and take their concerns seriously. 99% of the time it is nothing but that 1% may be the time that something is really wrong.

 

[FlyingSig]

I hope the F/O wins and they have to pay.

Facts are there was no violation. There was no discipline at the company. The airplane did get de-iced before the power was pushed for takeoff. He-said she-said argument over "who got the airplane to get deiced". F/A's don't like that the pilots didn't get spanked. Maybe maybe not used company channels to try to get them spanked then made an end-around at the pilot's career. "Which flight attendant or passenger would dare to speak up in the future and insist, that rules are being followed for example on de-icing, if possible "retaliatory action" by flight crew is to be feared?" What the hell is going to the FAA after you got deiced? That's not retailiatory??? I hope they'll be making monthly payments for years to come.

 

[wzgrza]

Agreed. FAs were no in position to go calling the FAA on this, and risking the pilots careers.

But I also don't think that they should owe between the 3 of them 2 million, either.

Don't really know the facts. There are bad pilots out there as well. But going to the FAA about something the pilots know more about, and are trained to deal with, is way over the top, and out of line.

 

[Velocipede]

Ok, I've read both sides of this argument. Here's my opinion colored by long experience in ALPA and Navy Aviation Safety jobs.

1. The F/A acted entirely appropriately. She recognized a problem and continued to press the issue until the problem was resolved. Sure, she fabricated the part about the passengers noticing the ice, but that was only because the pilots were (apparently) unreceptive to her input.

2. Ultimately, the airplane did get deiced and the flight progressed safely. She met her goal.

3. Where this broke down was by NOT using her professional standards committee to resolve this issue. She and her partners went right to the Company instead of working the issue through the Unions. Both Unions have methods for addressing issues like this without Company or FAA intervention.

If they HAD used the Professional Standards Committee, then they would not have been forced to repeat the lie about the passengers. That's the whole crux of the matter. The F/O's professional reputation was questioned before the FAA and the public and he decided to use the legal system for redress. Unfortunately, since the F/As were caught in their fabrication, the Company will no longer back them in the legal system.

This whole thing could have been quashed IF the F/As had let their ProStans Committee handle it.

In 19 years of airline flying, I have only had to address one problem to the AFA ProStans Committee. No one from the Company ever found out about the issue. I was assured by the AFA ProStans rep that if the Company had ever gotten wind of what happened with my F/A she would have been fired. No questions asked.

Instead, AFA ProStans counseled her and nothing ever came of the incident.

These F/As decided to "write the F/O up" and the stuff hit the fan.

Something makes me think there might be just a bit more to the story due to the fact that the Capt. wasn't included even though HE has the final responsibility for getting the airplane deiced.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm....".

 

[zmiller4]

1. The F/A acted entirely appropriately. She recognized a problem and continued to press the issue until the problem was resolved. Sure, she fabricated the part about the passengers noticing the ice, but that was only because the pilots were (apparently) unreceptive to her input.

2. Ultimately, the airplane did get deiced and the flight progressed safely. She met her goal.

3. Where this broke down was by NOT using her professional standards committee to resolve this issue. She and her partners went right to the Company instead of working the issue through the Unions. Both Unions have methods for addressing issues like this without Company or FAA intervention.

If they HAD used the Professional Standards Committee, then they would not have been forced to repeat the lie about the passengers. That's the whole crux of the matter. The F/O's professional reputation was questioned before the FAA and the public and he decided to use the legal system for redress. Unfortunately, since the F/As were caught in their fabrication, the Company will no longer back them in the legal system.

:yeahthat:
Very well said. I think that having a pro standards committee is probably up there with (and related to) job protection as the biggest strengths of ALPA.

Something makes me think there might be just a bit more to the story due to the fact that the Capt. wasn't included even though HE has the final responsibility for getting the airplane deiced.

It seems to me that there's probably a lot happening between the FA's and FO on a personal level that isn't being made public.

 

[KLB]

Something makes me think there might be just a bit more to the story due to the fact that the Capt. wasn't included even though HE has the final responsibility for getting the airplane deiced.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm....".

I agree. Where was he in all of this? I'm only a freight pilot, but I figure he has two roles in this situation. Not only is he the "decider". He is also the initial go-to-guy in settling these types of disputes. If there was something personal between the two, he should also be the one to decide who to boot off the trip. Thats all just my opinion.

 

[JungleJet]

If a flight attendant, or even a passenger notices something, I'm investigating it. Obviously, if a passenger remarks about snow on the wing before we hit the de-icing pad, that's one thing. If someone in the back still thinks we're contaminated after that, I'm going to check it out.

I love studying air crash investigations, and if there is one thing I've learned through all of it... 99 times out 100 your F/A or passenger will be making something out of nothing. However, that 1% is where you can save your life, as well as your passengers.

The lawsuit is a bit messed up and I don't want to play HR. However, I do think that this issue could've been avoided if proper CRM (including my flight attendant) was followed -- which, I don't think occurred here.

 

[SIUav8er]

Are you $*#&ing kidding me? I confess I've never gone through Flight Attendant training, so maybe there's a unit in there on complex aerodynamics and ice detection. If not, shut up and get me some coffee. Crew concept is great, but I think it's generally meant to appliy to people trained to be part of the crew for the task at hand. How far does this go? Should doctors make sure the orderlies agree with their diagnosis? Engineers defer to draftsmen? Flight Attendants are professionals, too, and part of being a professional is recognizing what your duties are and aren't. I don't tell you how to use the galley, don't tell me how to fly the plane.

Agreed 100%

Its great that they made thier observations clear to the pilots, but it should have been left at that. I dont disagree with total CRM, but the method by which the FA's went about the entire situation seems suspect. I dont fly for an airline, but I do haul nurses which, while not officially FA's, definitely fill the role. I cant imagine what kind of mess every flight would be if they were part of the actual flight ops side of the decision making process... Not cool.

I hope the pilot wins his lawsuit

 

[mrivc211]

I routinely have FO's come in and tell me, "theres just a little stuff on the lower surface of the wing". Ok, de ice it is. No matter what little amount, our company goes by the clean and clear moto. Now, if my FO comes in and says theres nothing out there, I'm going to trust his professional opinion. If a FA brings the issue up, I would assume the FO maybe missed a spot and have him re-examine. If he says still theres nothing, but she keeps pushing the issue, I will look myself. If there is any on there, the FO and I will have a heart to heart. If there is nothing there, I will have a discussion with the FA.

We don't know the facts. Maybe the FO and FA weren't getting along previously and this was her way of "getting back at him". Beleive me, been there, done that.