The quote is a joke because of how ridiculous that attitude is.
Wow 2003 that's a long time. You're surely an authority on what is outdated and what isn't.
Thanks for the laugh though....it'll be a good story for tonight's flight.
Upwind leg of Traffic Pattern
- Thread starter Trip7
- Start date
Wow 2003 that's a long time. You're surely an authority on what is outdated and what isn't.
Thanks for the laugh though....it'll be a good story for tonight's flight.
You're saying 4 years isn't long enough to have heard the term "departure leg" used at least once? I'm sure there are people out there who have been flying for longer than I have and haven't heard the term used any more than a handful of times.
No offense but I'll give the aim a little more weight that what you've heard in your vast 4 years of flying.
So you're saying the term "upwind" isn't as common as I make it out to be? You don't have to take my word for it. Listen to others here.
I'm not saying "upwind" is right and "departure" is wrong. If you want to define "wrong" as "not in the AIM", then yes, "upwind" is indeed wrong. All I'm saying is that everywhere I go, "upwind" is by far the most common term used. If the FAA wants us to all be using the same term, it would be a hell of a lot easier to make "upwind" standard.
Remember, there's nothing inherently safer about the words "departure leg" as opposed to "upwind leg". As long as everybody is using the same word, there's no safety issue.
exleardriver
Well-Known Member
well,icouldn't agree more. there are few instructors on the field to which i refer (maybe three?) and countless numbers of pilots, old timers, vets..and plenty who don't fly with radio or adhere to standard traffic pattern altitudes. i pick the battles here that i can win. this just isn't one of them. :bandit:
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
seems to me like taking the philosophy that if all the other lemmings are jumping off the cliff then it has to be okay....
1. just because it is a common phrase which is often incorrectly used with regard to position does not make it right.
2. the easy road and the right road are often not the same.
3. isn't it our duty as instructors to be precise in teaching the correct phraseology?
4. the FAA does want us using the same phraseology, which is why there is a printed AIM. It is unfortunate that a.) students are taught the wrong phraseology from instructors that do not know any better and b.)instructors lower their teaching standard to accept incorrect phraseology because it is "easier" and not necessarily correct.
If a student says today's pressure altitude is xxxx and is talking about density altitude, do you correct them? Why? Because it is the incorrect term to use and they have incredibly different meanings.
There is no difference between that example and correcting a pilot to call the departure leg the departure leg and upwind upwind; the only difference is an instructor's attitude to choose to not correct something which is wrong.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
a battle usually cannot have a desired outcome if only a select few try (except maybe the guys in the movie the 300
) Which is why IMHO that you have to take on these responsibilities whether or not you think that personally you can make a difference.I respect the experience you have, lear.
I am sure however, you are probably teaching correctly, just not trying to change those who are no longer being taught. That's cool :bandit:
What I address is those instructors who are teaching new pilots wrong.
If you are teaching them that it is the upwind leg, then we have issues because you know what is right as per the AIM. We cannot change the whole community, but at least we can do the community a service by attempting to teach the correct information.
wrxpilot
New Member
I wonder if that's because of your LNA days? It's kind of a weird airport since we don't usually come in overhead with the PBI airspace, so the upwind entries are probably much more common compared to most other non-towered airports (and, as you probably recall all too well, most there understand the difference between "upwind" and "departure" out of necessity).
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Wow - you've probably been out of the state, too - impressive!
I've made sure that my students call it what it is, and nothing else.
I also make sure that I call it what it is, nothing else.
If everybody does the wrong thing, it's still the wrong thing.
You're equating using the phrase "upwind leg" with jumping off a bridge. This can't be any further from the truth, especially considering you're almost 100% more likely to be understood using that term to begin with.
Yes it does. The whole point of the phrase is to convey where you are. If you say "Cessna 1234 is climbing upwind" you'll be understood by everyone listening.
In this case, what exactly is it about the "hard road" that makes it the right road? Are there any inherent safety benefits to using the term "departure leg" as opposed to "upwind leg"? Do you think that one extra syllable somehow makes the call more distinguishable? I'm not being sarcastic, I honestly want to know why you think "departure leg" is better other than just "uh it's in the AIM"
If the FAA were to change the name of that leg to "upwind" would you protest that? Or would you gladly switch over?
Yes. But what am I going to say to my student when they ask me why the Jepp book lists the "departure leg" as the "upwind leg"? Or how am I supposed to explain to him why every other single pilot is saying "upwind" instead? Its a uphill batter that will never be won.
I never even heard of this whole "departure" nonsense until about a month and a half ago. I had absolutly no idea. I've never been to an airport where saying "upwind" would cause confusion. How exactly was I taught wrong? How did my instructors lead me astray when I have never and WILL never run into a problem saying "upwind"?
If every single pilot out there regarded what the book refers to as "density altitude" to be "pressure altitude", then I wouldn't correct him. Why teach your student a phraseology that absolutly no one follows?
In your example, the terms "density altitude" and "pressure altitude" have no confusion regarding what they refer to. I would correct the student.
Because you haven't encountered it in your 4 years of flying means it's "nonsense"? Is this really your attitude with flying? You've done it for 4 years so if you haven't heard it then it doesn't matter? Let me know how that know it all attitude gets you places in the future.
As WRXpilot pointed out, the airport I taught out of there were ALOT of upwind entries to the traffic pattern due to airspace. Your BS radio calls would cause much confusion and your lack of ability would be very evident and would make everyone else's work load higher.
It's sad that you are an instructor with this attitude. I fear for your students and their students. Then again they are all just going into RJs in a few hours anyways. Just one more thing for their captain to teach them....who woulda thought a airline pilot would need to be taught phraseology.
As WRXpilot pointed out, the airport I taught out of there were ALOT of upwind entries to the traffic pattern due to airspace. Your BS radio calls would cause much confusion and your lack of ability would be very evident and would make everyone else's work load higher.
It's sad that you are an instructor with this attitude. I fear for your students and their students. Then again they are all just going into RJs in a few hours anyways. Just one more thing for their captain to teach them....who woulda thought a airline pilot would need to be taught phraseology.
caliginousface
Frank N. Beans
Dooooood kinda harsh but I love your butt.
Eaaaaasssssy now :tmi:
PilotJT
Well-Known Member
It all depends on what the TPA is at your airport.
Did you start flying at an airport with a TPA of 800?
500 would make sense if your TPA is 800. Usually 800 is used if you have some sort of airspace above you.
So if your TPA is 1,000, 700 is what you want. Unless ofcourse you feel like doing a early turn out to buzz the guys in the tower
So yeah the AIM is right with the 300 before TPA.
Did you start flying at an airport with a TPA of 800?
500 would make sense if your TPA is 800. Usually 800 is used if you have some sort of airspace above you.
So if your TPA is 1,000, 700 is what you want. Unless ofcourse you feel like doing a early turn out to buzz the guys in the tower
So yeah the AIM is right with the 300 before TPA.
OK, so you've proven that theres one airport out there that uses "departure leg". If you look long and hard you might find a few more. My point was it's not the most common term in use BY FAR. Using "departure leg" solely will cause more confusion than using "upwind" solely. Nice job jumping to conclusions.
We're beating a dead horse but if you use "upwind" like you are saying that could be two seperate spots. There is no dispute on where "departure" is.
Yes that is correct, I think it's messed up that those two legs get called the same thing. That is why I think the FAA should rename "departure leg" to "upwind leg", and "upwind leg" (as it is now), the "parallel leg" (or somesuch)
But like I said a million times already, I'm not the only one who calls it the upwind leg. Whats the point of singling me out? Just look at the thread title for Christ sake. If you seriously think I'm a bad instructor because I tell my students to call it "upwind", then you're crazy. Why don't you make a thread in the general topics subforum with that claim? It'll be interesting to see the responses you get...
nosehair
Well-Known Member
Well, this is all enlightening to me. I didn't know there were pilots who can't distinguish between the two seperate physical locations as "departure" and "upwind".
THEY ARE DIFFERENT PLACES, PEOPLE!!
You're scaring me. If I hear someone say they are "upwind", I look in the area at TP altitude on the opposite side of the field from the downwind.
If I hear someone call "departure", I look in line with the departure end of the runway.
You guys are really scaring me. Seriously.
THEY ARE DIFFERENT PLACES, PEOPLE!!
You're scaring me. If I hear someone say they are "upwind", I look in the area at TP altitude on the opposite side of the field from the downwind.
If I hear someone call "departure", I look in line with the departure end of the runway.
You guys are really scaring me. Seriously.
Upwind is parallel to the runway opposite of downwind. The airport I fly out of has a non-standard pattern because it's one way in and the opposite way out. This would be completely confusing if people did not know the difference between an upwind leg and a departure leg at this airport. Keep it how the AIM says and there's not too much confusion. :banghead: Makes a big difference if someone says "N1234 on upwind" meaning that they just departed the runway and someone else is turning left base thinking that N1234 is no where near the departure end of the runway. Where I fly that can cause you to be head on with another plane. Hope I don't have to share the sky with ya'll who don't think these terms don't matter too much.
Hmm... coming from someone that named themself "Butt" - we should just let him re-write the FAR/AIM. Butt Part 91 - Flight Ops - Do whatever you want.