Unsupervised 'instruction.'

[Bamaaviator]

I work for an outfit (not mentioning the company name) that is paying a CFI candidate for 'instruction' that's unsupervised. How do I know this? I've walked by a classroom on several occasions and have seen this individual giving 'instruction' to students. I have photographic evidence of this illegal activity on the company payroll in my phone. I stumbled upon this one night when I was filling out student records and was looking through some invoices of students I had for the day. This individual had a 'stub' of the amount of time they were going to be paid for. Several in fact.

FAR 61.3 lays it out VERY clearly that no person other than the holder of a ground instructor certificate may conduct ground training with students. This individual is NOT a ground instructor. I am 100% certain of this. I've worked with this person on several occasions doing ground school on CFI related stuff earlier this summer. No ground instructor certificate is in the individual's possession.

Has anybody ever heard of this going on where a flight school is paying a CFI wannabe when they aren't even a CFI or ground instructor yet?

Most importantly, should I report this? Will the FSDO be interested and look into this? If this person is going along with management and blatantly violating regs already, it does make me wonder what other regs will they be violating when the individual passes the checkride and starts teaching students.

 

[av8tr1]

I worked with a company that had a private pilot giving actual flight lessons. The guy owned the operation and thought that gave him the right to do stage checks and other instructional type activities.

The FAA didn’t care or go after enforcement action.

Good luck though.....people like this need to be weeded out before they kill someone.

 

[Bamaaviator]

Did you go to the FAA and inform them of the illegal stuff occurring? I have this feeling that the FAA isn't going to go after them, but idk, it does bother me that people could die from stupidity like this later on down the line. I would like to think the FAA gives as much of a damn as I do

 

[av8tr1]

They don’t.

Yes I told the local FSDO. Actually they came to me when I had quit the place wanting my help with an investigation that never seemed to go anywhere.

I was told, quoting here, “we don’t have time to hang around hiding in the bushes to catch him”.

 

[Bamaaviator]

Wow. So this makes me wonder then. Why does the FAA go to such a great extent to make things like CFI checkrides so difficult to pass, but then when they hear of illegal activity especially in the 135/91 world they turn a blind eye to it? They don't seem too big on enforcing their own rules

 

[🦈💜]

I work for an outfit (not mentioning the company name) that is paying a CFI candidate for 'instruction' that's unsupervised. How do I know this? I've walked by a classroom on several occasions and have seen this individual giving 'instruction' to students. I have photographic evidence of this illegal activity on the company payroll in my phone. I stumbled upon this one night when I was filling out student records and was looking through some invoices of students I had for the day. This individual had a 'stub' of the amount of time they were going to be paid for. Several in fact.

FAR 61.3 lays it out VERY clearly that no person other than the holder of a ground instructor certificate may conduct ground training with students. This individual is NOT a ground instructor. I am 100% certain of this. I've worked with this person on several occasions doing ground school on CFI related stuff earlier this summer. No ground instructor certificate is in the individual's possession.

Has anybody ever heard of this going on where a flight school is paying a CFI wannabe when they aren't even a CFI or ground instructor yet?

Most importantly, should I report this? Will the FSDO be interested and look into this? If this person is going along with management and blatantly violating regs already, it does make me wonder what other regs will they be violating when the individual passes the checkride and starts teaching students.

What kind of instruction was he giving? Generally speaking, anyone can give any kind of ground instruction—it just can't be used to meet any requirements of any other regulation.

Anyone can teach, and teaching is a fantastic way to build CFIs. I wouldn't have a CFI applicant teach a primary student unsupervised, nor would I use their instruction alone as basis for any endorsement for solo or for a written / practical test, of course, but in the end the magic—and the responsibility–is in the signature, not in the work.

Now, the organization might be on the wrong side of the law here, if they're using the instruction given as basis for, say, pre-solo aeronautical knowledge requirements, or if they're a 141 program or other structured program... but generally speaking, an instructor cert is only required to endorse ground training, not to give it. But if the individual is teaching, say, aeronautical knowledge for a written test that they don't then endorse the applicant in question for... well, sounds fine to me.

Also ... aren't we being just a little bit dramatic here? Is the individual grossly incompetent, or are you just objecting to the fact that they're being paid when you feel a CFI / GI / AGI should be doing the work?

-Fox
CFI / AGI / ATP

 

[Bamaaviator]

Point taken, acrofox. Am I being dramatic about it? Maybe, maybe not. The individual is getting paid for it. That's where the problem is. Would you pay somebody who is not a doctor, but somewhat knowledgeable in the field of medicine to do your surgery for you, unsupervised?

Is the individual grossly incompetent? Yea, I've flown with the individual before, the person couldn't even perform the maneuvers to standards, was actually well outside of the standards. Kept making excuses as to why they were flying like crap. Things like "it's the airplane, I hate this airplane." My private students do a much better job. This person has a bit of an attitude as well and can't handle criticism very well during our ground sessions over most of this summer. I was simulating things that my students have said or done during lectures while said person was giving their lectures, got a slight attitude and was a little impatient. Ive had a couple other CFI candidates who handle critiques very well and came back better prepared the next time. Anyways this is kinda besides the point but somebody shouldn't be getting paid for something they aren't 'technically' qualified to do.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I work for an outfit (not mentioning the company name) that is paying a CFI candidate for 'instruction' that's unsupervised. How do I know this? I've walked by a classroom on several occasions and have seen this individual giving 'instruction' to students. I have photographic evidence of this illegal activity on the company payroll in my phone. I stumbled upon this one night when I was filling out student records and was looking through some invoices of students I had for the day. This individual had a 'stub' of the amount of time they were going to be paid for. Several in fact.

FAR 61.3 lays it out VERY clearly that no person other than the holder of a ground instructor certificate may conduct ground training with students. This individual is NOT a ground instructor. I am 100% certain of this. I've worked with this person on several occasions doing ground school on CFI related stuff earlier this summer. No ground instructor certificate is in the individual's possession.

Has anybody ever heard of this going on where a flight school is paying a CFI wannabe when they aren't even a CFI or ground instructor yet?

Most importantly, should I report this? Will the FSDO be interested and look into this? If this person is going along with management and blatantly violating regs already, it does make me wonder what other regs will they be violating when the individual passes the checkride and starts teaching students.

I'm shocked, shocked! that something sketchy is happening at a flight school.
Maybe you didn't get the memo. Qualified experts ain't got no cachet no more; Them's elitist scum.
No worries, it's all good Broosevelt. Pre-med undergrads are way cheaper than real doctors.

Anyone can teach, and teaching is a fantastic way to build CFIs. I wouldn't have a CFI applicant teach a primary student unsupervised, nor would I use their instruction alone as basis for any endorsement for solo or for a written / practical test, of course, but in the end the magic—and the responsibility–is in the signature, not in the work.
But if the individual is teaching, say, aeronautical knowledge for a written test that they don't then endorse the applicant in question for... well, sounds fine to me.

Sure, that's correct, Fox. But with the caveat that the student CFI should be supervised during his practice instruction (think of a student teacher). Disregarding any discussion of the student CFI's competence or lack thereof, the real problem here is that it appears the school is using this individual's unsupervised teaching as a billable service to other students. That's not ok in several ways. Most important is that the unsupervised student CFI might be disseminating information that is just plain incorrect. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but if he's unsupervised, no one is ever going to know. Additionally, the student CFI is not going to learn anything himself because no one is monitoring his practice. He might be getting better and better at being a lousy teacher. Everyone has the potential to lose in this scenario. The way this was described in the OP reminds me of the classic 3 PIC flight. (I once saw an attempt at 4.)
We don't have all the facts on this, so adequate analysis is impossible. We have been told that the student CFI is teaching students and that he is getting paid to do so. Are the student CFI's students aware of this? Are they even aware that "their CFI" is not a CFI at all? Are they ok paying good money for this "service"?

 

[BigZ]

What @Acrofox said

If the individual is getting paid for what he does, then the company sees whatever benefit in him doing so.
If the school approaches you to endorse the student for a written after the other guy's ground, feel free to say no.
Otherwise what he does can be called "tutoring" or "coaching" or whatever other BS and be perfectly legal to do.

 

[🦈💜]

Point taken, acrofox. Am I being dramatic about it? Maybe, maybe not. The individual is getting paid for it. That's where the problem is. Would you pay somebody who is not a doctor, but somewhat knowledgeable in the field of medicine to do your surgery for you, unsupervised?

Is the individual grossly incompetent? Yea, I've flown with the individual before, the person couldn't even perform the maneuvers to standards, was actually well outside of the standards. Kept making excuses as to why they were flying like crap. Things like "it's the airplane, I hate this airplane." My private students do a much better job. This person has a bit of an attitude as well and can't handle criticism very well during our ground sessions over most of this summer. I was simulating things that my students have said or done during lectures while said person was giving their lectures, got a slight attitude and was a little impatient. Ive had a couple other CFI candidates who handle critiques very well and came back better prepared the next time. Anyways this is kinda besides the point but somebody shouldn't be getting paid for something they aren't 'technically' qualified to do.

I don't disagree at all with your sentiment, but 'illegal' versus 'unwise' is a dangerous gap. If an instructor is signing the students off on the individual's instruction without review, however, that's an issue that the FAA can—should—do something about.

Also, to get GI/AGI is a matter of a relatively simple written test and a visit to the FSDO, so it's not like it would solve the issues you raise.

Believe me, I'm 100% in favor of good instruction. I really want to see the standards way higher than they are in this country... students should be taught AOA, energy management, and judgment from day 0... but I've gotten pushback on that from people who say "Na, that'll just scare 'em off! Start 'em simple, give 'em numbers and configurations to fly, teach 'em stall speeds, and we'll get to all that fancy aerodynamics stuff by Commercial."

Quality instruction is a pet issue for me, but it's not something I can do anything about... especially in these degenerate times of $500-$1000 checkrides, scummy DPEs who should be sued / violated / both, (I'm thinking of one in particular in San Jose, for example, who basically fails / discontinues rides without any actual basis just so that he can make money on the rechecks. I've heard many stories from many different people and will never send a student to him.)

So yeah. Poor instruction should be caught by the (theoretically-unaffiliated) examiner. The only other thing I'd consider is putting a bug in the ear of the students and letting them know that they're paying for instruction by a non-instructor... but in general... meh?

-Fox

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I don't disagree at all with your sentiment, but 'illegal' versus 'unwise' is a dangerous gap. If an instructor is signing the students off on the individual's instruction without review, however, that's an issue that the FAA can—should—do something about.

Also, to get GI/AGI is a matter of a relatively simple written test and a visit to the FSDO, so it's not like it would solve the issues you raise.

Believe me, I'm 100% in favor of good instruction. I really want to see the standards way higher than they are in this country... students should be taught AOA, energy management, and judgment from day 0... but I've gotten pushback on that from people who say "Na, that'll just scare 'em off! Start 'em simple, give 'em numbers and configurations to fly, teach 'em stall speeds, and we'll get to all that fancy aerodynamics stuff by Commercial."

Quality instruction is a pet issue for me, but it's not something I can do anything about... especially in these degenerate times of $500-$1000 checkrides, scummy DPEs who should be sued / violated / both, (I'm thinking of one in particular in San Jose, for example, who basically fails / discontinues rides without any actual basis just so that he can make money on the rechecks. I've heard many stories from many different people and will never send a student to him.)

So yeah. Poor instruction should be caught by the (theoretically-unaffiliated) examiner. The only other thing I'd consider is putting a bug in the ear of the students and letting them know that they're paying for instruction by a non-instructor... but in general... meh?

-Fox

Hey! I know that guy! He still there? Survived the purge? ...Caused the purge, perhaps??

 

[🦈💜]

Hey! I know that guy! He still there? Survived the purge? ...Caused the purge, perhaps??

To my knowledge, he was, in fact, the sole survivor.

-Fox

 

[Bamaaviator]

I don't disagree at all with your sentiment, but 'illegal' versus 'unwise' is a dangerous gap. If an instructor is signing the students off on the individual's instruction without review, however, that's an issue that the FAA can—should—do something about.

Also, to get GI/AGI is a matter of a relatively simple written test and a visit to the FSDO, so it's not like it would solve the issues you raise.

Believe me, I'm 100% in favor of good instruction. I really want to see the standards way higher than they are in this country... students should be taught AOA, energy management, and judgment from day 0... but I've gotten pushback on that from people who say "Na, that'll just scare 'em off! Start 'em simple, give 'em numbers and configurations to fly, teach 'em stall speeds, and we'll get to all that fancy aerodynamics stuff by Commercial."

Quality instruction is a pet issue for me, but it's not something I can do anything about... especially in these degenerate times of $500-$1000 checkrides, scummy DPEs who should be sued / violated / both, (I'm thinking of one in particular in San Jose, for example, who basically fails / discontinues rides without any actual basis just so that he can make money on the rechecks. I've heard many stories from many different people and will never send a student to him.)

So yeah. Poor instruction should be caught by the (theoretically-unaffiliated) examiner. The only other thing I'd consider is putting a bug in the ear of the students and letting them know that they're paying for instruction by a non-instructor... but in general... meh?

-Fox

I'm all for going above and beyond with raising the standards for students. I agree as well the standards are not high enough.

I get students from other flight schools and even other CFI's from my school who initially dread working with me because they don't like all the ground I do, but eventually come around and begin to appreciate the hard work I do for them by giving lots of extra instruction and really testing the limits of their knowledge and abilities. I like to make flight training fun for them. They eventually begin to like doing ground school and some start to become really engaged, when they initially thought they didn't need to do any ground.

A lot of CFI's are building hours and providing mediocre instruction. I've had a couple of those. I quickly fired them, and found a better one. I got my money's worth. I could care less about building my hours, the hours will come, I'm getting plenty. I care about the students' aviation education. Every single student I get, regardless of background, age, or ability, is given the highest level of instruction I can give them. This industry is expensive, I remember how it was paying for all of it myself, took me over 10 years to get where I am. It wasn't an easy road. I want them to feel like every dollar spent on flight training is money that's well spent.

But here's the important thing, and this is getting to the point. I always think about the individual's future as a pilot when they're finally out there on their own and they're legally able to carry passengers around. I think in terms of their safety later on down the line long after they have left the training environment and the checkride is over. I don't necessarily follow the regs for the sake of following regs, I think about what could possibly happen to this student of mine if they develop really bad habits or violate regs and it goes unchecked for many years. 'Will this person end up killing themselves, and taking other people with them?' is the question I ask myself during each lesson. 'Will this person die as a result of my negligence or lack of oversight?'

I've spoken about this to 2 other CFI's who are very experienced pilots and teachers, both retired military but still active flight instructors, who have told me to report this to the FSDO. Said there's a possibility the FAA just might shut this outfit down. It's one thing when you accidentally violate a reg and it was unintentional, it's another when you intentionally, willfully violate regs on a consistent basis. There's no ignorance regarding the regs on this issue with my flight school owner. The owner knows what he's doing. We've been short staffed for awhile now and he's cutting corners on regs and using this CFI candidate to give 'instruction' and paying the person to do it. This outfit has done many other questionable things and more than likely I won't be working here much longer as I have an 'out' from this place.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

When I was in college they had a tutoring lab where people working on their CFI ticket could help students working on lower ratings. It definitely was a good experience.

Legally I think as long as none of this instruction is is being logged, there’s nothing wrong with it.

That said, if there is an exchange of money it does seem a little shady.

 

[Bamaaviator]

I have no problems with CFI applicants giving instruction to students. I should have stated that in my first post to begin with. I gave some instruction to a student when I was a candidate as well. It's great experience, no doubt. Because we all know, 'simulated instruction' teaching a CFI is just different than teaching actual students. It's just not the same. Period. We learn more from our students post checkride then pre-checkride. I never would have accepted compensation for it. That is a whole different matter.

 

[BigZ]

So what's your question?
Your experienced ex military CFI friends told you to take it fsdo, why bring it here instead?
Sketchy flight schools? Surpriiiiise.
Inadequate ground? I did self study all the way up to 135 indoc, benefit of pt 61.
Establishing renome? Ehhh..
Soooo?

 

[Bamaaviator]

Ok big shot, chill out. Who pissed in your dinner? Sheez, just wanted to get several opinions on the matter, that's all

 

[BigZ]

Ok big shot, chill out. Who pissed in your dinner? Sheez, just wanted to get several opinions on the matter, that's all

No-one pissed in my dinner, just thought you were acting like a chest-thumping 19 yo, hence the inquiry, but now I clearly see that you're not.

 

[Flying Saluki]

I work for an outfit (not mentioning the company name) that is paying a CFI candidate for 'instruction' that's unsupervised. How do I know this? I've walked by a classroom on several occasions and have seen this individual giving 'instruction' to students. I have photographic evidence of this illegal activity on the company payroll in my phone. I stumbled upon this one night when I was filling out student records and was looking through some invoices of students I had for the day. This individual had a 'stub' of the amount of time they were going to be paid for. Several in fact.

FAR 61.3 lays it out VERY clearly that no person other than the holder of a ground instructor certificate may conduct ground training with students. This individual is NOT a ground instructor. I am 100% certain of this. I've worked with this person on several occasions doing ground school on CFI related stuff earlier this summer. No ground instructor certificate is in the individual's possession.

Has anybody ever heard of this going on where a flight school is paying a CFI wannabe when they aren't even a CFI or ground instructor yet?

Most importantly, should I report this? Will the FSDO be interested and look into this? If this person is going along with management and blatantly violating regs already, it does make me wonder what other regs will they be violating when the individual passes the checkride and starts teaching students.

That's not what the reg. says. It says no person other than the holder of a ground instructor certificate... may—

(i) Give ground training required to qualify a person for solo flight and solo cross-country flight;

(ii) Endorse an applicant for a knowledge test required for a pilot, flight instructor, or ground instructor certificate or rating issued under this part; or

(iii) Endorse a pilot logbook to show ground training given.

The way I see it, if none of these activities are occurring, then no reg. is being violated. They're just people in a room talking.

That said, how do you know the candidate isn't being supervised? Do you have to be in the room in order to supervise someone? If so, no one would ever solo an airplane

As to how to handle it, just ask. As the candidate, ask the candidate's instructor. More importantly, ask yourself; does your experience with this employer suggest they are a shady operation trying to put one over on people?

The answers to these question will determine the next action. But don't push the whistleblower button just yet; you may not have all the facts.

 

[ppragman]

I work for an outfit (not mentioning the company name) that is paying a CFI candidate for 'instruction' that's unsupervised. How do I know this? I've walked by a classroom on several occasions and have seen this individual giving 'instruction' to students. I have photographic evidence of this illegal activity on the company payroll in my phone. I stumbled upon this one night when I was filling out student records and was looking through some invoices of students I had for the day. This individual had a 'stub' of the amount of time they were going to be paid for. Several in fact.

FAR 61.3 lays it out VERY clearly that no person other than the holder of a ground instructor certificate may conduct ground training with students. This individual is NOT a ground instructor. I am 100% certain of this. I've worked with this person on several occasions doing ground school on CFI related stuff earlier this summer. No ground instructor certificate is in the individual's possession.

Has anybody ever heard of this going on where a flight school is paying a CFI wannabe when they aren't even a CFI or ground instructor yet?

Most importantly, should I report this? Will the FSDO be interested and look into this? If this person is going along with management and blatantly violating regs already, it does make me wonder what other regs will they be violating when the individual passes the checkride and starts teaching students.

Meh.

Is anything he's teaching factually wrong or dangerous? If not then who gives a •?

There is a lot of knowledge out there in the heads of guys who aren't instructors and some of the best instruction I've ever gotten has been from guys who never had a CFI.