United fires FA's for refusing to fly

To company, I'm just an appliance, just like the airplane. To think any different at a company that size, you are fooling yourself.
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Yup. FA'S voice an issue...issue is found not to exist, they still don't want to go. Fire them.

There is no room in this idustry, especially when it comes to security, for emotion.

Give your opinion. But of the facts say otherwise, you have nothing to stand on.

I disagree. I've been told to "fly or else" by management twice now in the last 10 years. Both times I told them it wasn't happening and walked away from the plane. Both times after the fact it turned out that I was correct and the in one case the system failed on the next leg when the plane was passed off to another crew, resulting in an emergency landing and several hundred thousand dollars worth of damage. I've also heard of a few scenarios where the crew refused a passenger even though they had been cleared by the CRO or Station Manager where, bad stuff then happened, thankfully in the terminal and not on the airplane. Emotion is sometimes the only thing that will keep you alive. That said, if there truly was nothing wrong then it's possible the FAs would get disciplined, but they shouldn't be fired.

Anybody know what the procedure is for "clearing" the airplane?

True story...

Years ago I refused a CRJ at DCA because the cockpit window was leaking so badly there was 5 inches of water in the flight kit holder bin below the window. MX wanted to just empty the water out and send us on our way but I refused until they could ensure that the rest of the water that DIDN'T collect in the bin hadn't done any other damage (and they had re-secured the window so it wouldn't leak more and we didn't have to do a 250 mile flight unpressurized at 8000 feet). That grounded the plane for the night so I went to the hotel and came back in the morning to fly the rest of my line which was a turn to Savannah and then a deadhead home. The FO and FA I was supposed to be with were deadheading in from somewhere else and of course were delayed, so I got the plane on my own and started going through the logbook to see what exactly MX had done the night before to solve the water problem.

Quick backstory... When a plane overnights, before it can go into service in the morning it has to get a security check. Part of that check is putting down the seat cushions that have been picked up when the plane is cleaned. Most places this is done by the gate agents or rampers but at that point in time, our FAs were responsible for doing a security check. When I got to the plane, as my FA was still enroute, no check had been done.

Anyhow, DCA uses the bus boarding system and about 20 minutes before departure the bus rolls up (with all 2 of our passengers!) and the driver asks if he can board them. I tell him no as I still don't have a crew yet and go back to checking the paperwork. About 10 minutes later a guy I have no idea who is sticks his head up front and asks if he can put down the seat cushions so he can sit down. Turns out the driver boarded the passengers anyway. So I put down two cushions in the front row and explain that the rest of the crew is on the way. About 20 minutes later they show up and the FA starts to get really worried because he never did a security check and there are now passengers on the plane and the have technically come in contact with a non sterile area of the airport (the unchecked plane). He talks to inflight who tells him that the passengers will have to be removed and go back through security and then the TSA needs to sweep the plane for us. I convey all this to operations who sends a bus out to take our passengers back in to be (I assume) brutalized by the Smurfs as they've now somehow become a threat by getting on a unsecure airplane. And then we wait for the TSA.

And wait.

And wait. And wait some more.

Two hours later I call operations to see what is going on and they say they are still working on it. About 45 minutes after that a cop shows up to the plane and asks if I'm the one that's reported a security issue. I explain to him what happened and say I don't think there is an issue but TSA policy requires a security sweep. He then tells me that TSA doesn't do those and that it is the job of DC Metro Police to do it and that the only way they will do one is if I file a police report that says I think there is a security issue. After a few phone calls to the Chief Pilot and our dispatchers I file the report with officer and he calls over a K9 unit who runs his dog through the cabin (really cool to watch actually) and then declares the plane safe. We call ops who reboard our two passengers. I ask them how bad it was getting special TSA treatment and they tell me that the bus just dropped them off at the terminal and they sat in the boarding area and waited and never got rescreened. So we blast off to SAV 3+ hours late for reasons I, to this day, understand.
 
I disagree. I've been told to "fly or else" by management twice now in the last 10 years. Both times I told them it wasn't happening and walked away from the plane. Both times after the fact it turned out that I was correct and the in one case the system failed on the next leg when the plane was passed off to another crew, resulting in an emergency landing and several hundred thousand dollars worth of damage. I've also heard of a few scenarios where the crew refused a passenger even though they had been cleared by the CRO or Station Manager where, bad stuff then happened, thankfully in the terminal and not on the airplane. Emotion is sometimes the only thing that will keep you alive. That said, if there truly was nothing wrong then it's possible the FAs would get disciplined, but they shouldn't be fired.



True story...

Years ago I refused a CRJ at DCA because the cockpit window was leaking so badly there was 5 inches of water in the flight kit holder bin below the window. MX wanted to just empty the water out and send us on our way but I refused until they could ensure that the rest of the water that DIDN'T collect in the bin hadn't done any other damage (and they had re-secured the window so it wouldn't leak more and we didn't have to do a 250 mile flight unpressurized at 8000 feet). That grounded the plane for the night so I went to the hotel and came back in the morning to fly the rest of my line which was a turn to Savannah and then a deadhead home. The FO and FA I was supposed to be with were deadheading in from somewhere else and of course were delayed, so I got the plane on my own and started going through the logbook to see what exactly MX had done the night before to solve the water problem.

Quick backstory... When a plane overnights, before it can go into service in the morning it has to get a security check. Part of that check is putting down the seat cushions that have been picked up when the plane is cleaned. Most places this is done by the gate agents or rampers but at that point in time, our FAs were responsible for doing a security check. When I got to the plane, as my FA was still enroute, no check had been done.

Anyhow, DCA uses the bus boarding system and about 20 minutes before departure the bus rolls up (with all 2 of our passengers!) and the driver asks if he can board them. I tell him no as I still don't have a crew yet and go back to checking the paperwork. About 10 minutes later a guy I have no idea who is sticks his head up front and asks if he can put down the seat cushions so he can sit down. Turns out the driver boarded the passengers anyway. So I put down two cushions in the front row and explain that the rest of the crew is on the way. About 20 minutes later they show up and the FA starts to get really worried because he never did a security check and there are now passengers on the plane and the have technically come in contact with a non sterile area of the airport (the unchecked plane). He talks to inflight who tells him that the passengers will have to be removed and go back through security and then the TSA needs to sweep the plane for us. I convey all this to operations who sends a bus out to take our passengers back in to be (I assume) brutalized by the Smurfs as they've now somehow become a threat by getting on a unsecure airplane. And then we wait for the TSA.

And wait.

And wait. And wait some more.

Two hours later I call operations to see what is going on and they say they are still working on it. About 45 minutes after that a cop shows up to the plane and asks if I'm the one that's reported a security issue. I explain to him what happened and say I don't think there is an issue but TSA policy requires a security sweep. He then tells me that TSA doesn't do those and that it is the job of DC Metro Police to do it and that the only way they will do one is if I file a police report that says I think there is a security issue. After a few phone calls to the Chief Pilot and our dispatchers I file the report with officer and he calls over a K9 unit who runs his dog through the cabin (really cool to watch actually) and then declares the plane safe. We call ops who reboard our two passengers. I ask them how bad it was getting special TSA treatment and they tell me that the bus just dropped them off at the terminal and they sat in the boarding area and waited and never got rescreened. So we blast off to SAV 3+ hours late for reasons I, to this day, understand.

I love seeing those dogs around. Especially when customers would yell at me for telling them it was not OK to leave their bags unattended on the other side of the concourse. Also love PBI TSA for being more then happy to walk them out and rescreen them.

That's crazy that you dealt with all of that because of a bus driver who didn't know any better, and its even crazier that the "clearing" process was "hey bring the dog up and down the isle and around the airplane real quick"!
 
And no one was concerned that passengers were boarded without a minimum complement of required FAs on board, in violation of the FARs?
 
Pete2800 said:
If I have a safety concern about an airplane I'm about to fly, we ain't pulling the chocks. If may be their plane, but it's my life, my certificate, and my responsibility.
You are trained to be aware of safety stuff far above the training for an FA. I'd give you more credibility than a FA's complaint about external grafitti.

But I don't work for the TSA.
 
I don't know about this one. "its my life". I'm assuming the FA's were genuinely spooked by this, considering how many airplanes have disappeared in the past year over asia/rusia/thatgeneralhalfofearth.
Sure, they can be spooked all they want, but and some point you got to put on your big kid pants and go work.

It's inconceivable to me how anyone could see this and think security threat as their initial reaction. So someone wants to mess with an airplane...the sneak on to the airport property undetected, make it to the airplane, hijack a scissor lift, tamper with the airplane, take time to leave a calling card like a comic book villain...that's a lot of complex steps. This is a series of events that poops on Occum's Razor.
 
Devil's advocate...

I board my aircraft, passengers board and then I find under my armrest some graffiti (quite common at my old carrier). It says "I hope SureJet burns."

I call dispatch and get the safety wheels turning. Aircraft had it's normal security screening before departing for foreign destination. I want all passengers patted down by TSA as well as all bags rescreened....I want bomb sniffing dogs brought on board otherwise I'm not going. Period. Company agrees to rescreen bags but isn't rescreening pax. I refuse. I'm not going Period. I cite Safety. I'm fired.....Fighting for job.
 
I would have a very hard time getting worked up over that graffiti. If a co-worker did I would probably laugh.
Recently, on a Brasilia, behind the escape rope doors:
Scratched-off, uh, material, with "Thanks, so and so"

and then so-and-so's handwriting: "Prove it, [you can't say that here]."
 
I disagree. I've been told to "fly or else" by management twice now in the last 10 years. Both times I told them it wasn't happening and walked away from the plane. Both times after the fact it turned out that I was correct and the in one case the system failed on the next leg when the plane was passed off to another crew, resulting in an emergency landing and several hundred thousand dollars worth of damage. I've also heard of a few scenarios where the crew refused a passenger even though they had been cleared by the CRO or Station Manager where, bad stuff then happened, thankfully in the terminal and not on the airplane. Emotion is sometimes the only thing that will keep you alive. That said, if there truly was nothing wrong then it's possible the FAs would get disciplined, but they shouldn't be fired.



True story...

Years ago I refused a CRJ at DCA because the cockpit window was leaking so badly there was 5 inches of water in the flight kit holder bin below the window. MX wanted to just empty the water out and send us on our way but I refused until they could ensure that the rest of the water that DIDN'T collect in the bin hadn't done any other damage (and they had re-secured the window so it wouldn't leak more and we didn't have to do a 250 mile flight unpressurized at 8000 feet). That grounded the plane for the night so I went to the hotel and came back in the morning to fly the rest of my line which was a turn to Savannah and then a deadhead home. The FO and FA I was supposed to be with were deadheading in from somewhere else and of course were delayed, so I got the plane on my own and started going through the logbook to see what exactly MX had done the night before to solve the water problem.

Quick backstory... When a plane overnights, before it can go into service in the morning it has to get a security check. Part of that check is putting down the seat cushions that have been picked up when the plane is cleaned. Most places this is done by the gate agents or rampers but at that point in time, our FAs were responsible for doing a security check. When I got to the plane, as my FA was still enroute, no check had been done.

Anyhow, DCA uses the bus boarding system and about 20 minutes before departure the bus rolls up (with all 2 of our passengers!) and the driver asks if he can board them. I tell him no as I still don't have a crew yet and go back to checking the paperwork. About 10 minutes later a guy I have no idea who is sticks his head up front and asks if he can put down the seat cushions so he can sit down. Turns out the driver boarded the passengers anyway. So I put down two cushions in the front row and explain that the rest of the crew is on the way. About 20 minutes later they show up and the FA starts to get really worried because he never did a security check and there are now passengers on the plane and the have technically come in contact with a non sterile area of the airport (the unchecked plane). He talks to inflight who tells him that the passengers will have to be removed and go back through security and then the TSA needs to sweep the plane for us. I convey all this to operations who sends a bus out to take our passengers back in to be (I assume) brutalized by the Smurfs as they've now somehow become a threat by getting on a unsecure airplane. And then we wait for the TSA.

And wait.

And wait. And wait some more.

Two hours later I call operations to see what is going on and they say they are still working on it. About 45 minutes after that a cop shows up to the plane and asks if I'm the one that's reported a security issue. I explain to him what happened and say I don't think there is an issue but TSA policy requires a security sweep. He then tells me that TSA doesn't do those and that it is the job of DC Metro Police to do it and that the only way they will do one is if I file a police report that says I think there is a security issue. After a few phone calls to the Chief Pilot and our dispatchers I file the report with officer and he calls over a K9 unit who runs his dog through the cabin (really cool to watch actually) and then declares the plane safe. We call ops who reboard our two passengers. I ask them how bad it was getting special TSA treatment and they tell me that the bus just dropped them off at the terminal and they sat in the boarding area and waited and never got rescreened. So we blast off to SAV 3+ hours late for reasons I, to this day, understand.

I agree with you on the maintenance stuff. At least in your case there is a thorough knowledge of airplane systems that supported your decision. I wouldn't really call that emotion.

Security is important, but this turned out to be a drawing on an airplane and confirmed as such by a sweep.
 
If I saw that on a walk around, it really wouldn't concern me as I've seen far, far worse things scrawled on and in the airplane.

If it did concern a crew member, I'd "expand the team" and contact OCC which would involve corporate security and a number of other groups and offer my concerns.

The more I read about it, the more it seems like it was unnecessarily escalated. But again, the court of public opinion only has scarce information.

Like when "Flight Attendant fired for innocently blogging" story from about a decade ago — well, trust me, there was a whole lot more to the story that was left out in order to bolster the "Poor, Innocent" David(a) vs "Evil Airline" Goliath narrative.
 
Like when "Flight Attendant fired for innocently blogging" story from about a decade ago — well, trust me, there was a whole lot more to the story that was left out in order to bolster the "Poor, Innocent" David(a) vs "Evil Airline" Goliath narrative.
+100000 Internets and the game to you for invoking Ellen Simonetti.
 
But again, the court of public opinion only has scarce information.

This. and again how trained the FA's are, compared to the training of a CA/FO. (I'm curious how they saw it in the first place.) If they were genuinely spooked out, we should consider that they normally don't do walk arounds or find "worst stuff". Give them the day off and send them to therapy or something, but (again if its genuine) to fire them for having safety concern, considering how many planes have gone missing or have been shot down last year with no real explanation, thats excessive.

Sure, they can be spooked all they want, but and some point you got to put on your big kid pants and go work.

It's inconceivable to me how anyone could see this and think security threat as their initial reaction. So someone wants to mess with an airplane...the sneak on to the airport property undetected, make it to the airplane, hijack a scissor lift, tamper with the airplane, take time to leave a calling card like a comic book villain...that's a lot of complex steps. This is a series of events that poops on Occum's Razor.

What's scary is that history has shown, especially in aviation, when we get complacent with things - thats when the wrong stuff starts slipping through the cracks. Devils advocate (not that I ever think this is likely), but graffiti scratch or painted on airplanes by ground handlers is a joke that you see all the time or whatever, until one day it isn't.

I think my sympathy and support for the FA's stems from my short season as a gate agent working with for a major airline. I've seen everything from employees who truly care about their airline, to part timers paid minimum wage and given a 20 min power point presentation to perform an unsupervised "security check" on the 4am shift they won on the bid because of their low seniority.

Just in the last few weeks we've seen a Delta ramper successfully smuggle a hundred+ weapons on some delta airplanes. It's only a matter of time before something that was a "oh that always happens" evolves into "oh man that always happened but I never thought it would turn into this".

and tsa=lol.
 
I trust the media to give me the whole story, as far as I can throw them. I'm not as young as I used to be and I couldn't throw anyone very far anymore. I see how the media screws up 99% of aviation stories so I hear this and I *KNOW* they're not giving me the full story.

If I saw something like that on a plane I'd be embarrassed as hell that the plane was dirty enough to write on. I'd also wonder how the hell they got high enough up to actually do it? Would I refuse to fly? Possibly. My 'gut feeling' has kept me out of trouble before, and I've learned to listen to it. However, let's say that I raised a fuss and the airplane got inspected and no threats found... I'd probably go.

Do they deserve to be fired, I say no. Their trip missed without pay, yes, but fired, no.
 
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