United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP)

[Dan208B]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

I'll agree that the CRJs are crap from a pax stand point.

I'll give you a hint as to which airplane scored the highest on passenger comfort surveys for a certain major airline. It was the plane I was a CA on - so you have a 50-50 shot.

I have an SIC type in that airplane... And to be perfectly honest it would be one of my top choices for coach seats. Never get stuck in the middle, plenty of leg room, fairly comfortable seats, decent windows. The FAs could use some improvement though.

 

[aloft]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

Hopefully it happens. Although I've been conditioned to immediately wonder 'whats the catch' anytime I hear anything good about ual.

They'll probably ask for pay/work rules concessions from labor to pay for the new jets, pleading "but we just can't afford new jets AND the executive bonus structure! You DO want to fly shiny new hardware, don't you?"

And lo, SJS hits mainline.

 

[Dynasty22]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

The way I see it...as the A350 will not be out for quite some time, and the 787 a while down the road, gives United time for a possible merger compatibility. Whether it be COA, US, or AA. Then leave it up to the merging party to deal with the order.

On the other hand, the most realistic possibility if they want to cut costs and go with just one or the other, the other will be converted for narrow body orders. I see United waiting for more from Boeing long haul before actually ordering more, and converting the A350 order into an A320, when the 320 line is about ready to start slowing down with the current backlog.

 

[Polar742]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

Just curious. Do airlines throw down cash for new planes? or do they usually finance them?

It depends on the airline. There are various methods to buying aircraft at an airline.

Some are leased. Some are bought, sold to a lessor then leased back to the airline (this method is pretty common as it replenishes the cash at the airline). Some are straight out financed or leased from a group like GE Aircraft or ILFC.

Also, if you're buying a finanaced fleet, you're payments add up to the price of an airplane when you buy so many. At that point, one plane is bought.

The idea that the airplane is a machine and it has a 20-year depreciation cycle attached to it, IIRC. So, when that clock hits zero you usually see a replacement. They tend to replace jets at 15 years, then take a one time write down of the last 5 years of depreciation.

They also love to use that during bad times. Ever see a press release like: "We lost 150 million in the quarter due to a special charge of parking the A123 fleet early"?

Some places will do extensive work on the aircraft and restart the depreciation clock. I think NWA did that with the DC-9s some years ago and UPS with the 727s.

Sorry, that's all I got in my head about that.

 

[DeuceOfAces]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

UPS pays cash for every airplane.

DAAAAYUM!

What airline has billions of dollars of cash sitting around to buy brand new multi-million dollar airplanes?! Unless UPS is buying airplanes a few at a time I don't understand how that is financially feasible. But, I know that UPS doesn't buy factory-fresh airplanes, only used, so yeah, maybe they can afford that.

 

[Polar742]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

DAAAAYUM!

What airline has billions of dollars of cash sitting around to buy brand new multi-million dollar airplanes?! Unless UPS is buying airplanes a few at a time I don't understand how that is financially feasible. But, I know that UPS doesn't buy factory-fresh airplanes, only used, so yeah, maybe they can afford that.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and make this statement: "I don't work there, but you don't know what you're talking about."

That about covers it.

 

[Polar742]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

DAAAAYUM!

What airline has billions of dollars of cash sitting around to buy brand new multi-million dollar airplanes?! Unless UPS is buying airplanes a few at a time I don't understand how that is financially feasible. But, I know that UPS doesn't buy factory-fresh airplanes, only used, so yeah, maybe they can afford that.

...and instead of just having fun at your expense, I'll back it up with facts:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070215c_nr.html

SEATTLE, Feb. 15, 2007 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today confirmed an order by UPS, the world's largest package delivery company, for 27 Boeing 767-300 Freighters -- an order, when all are delivered, that will nearly double the UPS 767 Freighter fleet.
In addition, the new order pushes the total number of 767s ordered to date to 1,005 airplanes, 77 of which are freighters. With more than 1,000 total orders, the 767 joins an elite group of airplanes that includes Boeing's 707, 727, 737, 747, 757 and MD-80 models.
The 27 new airplanes are slated for delivery beginning in 2009, extending into 2012.
This is the third order by UPS for 767 Freighters, the first coming in 1993 with the model's launch order for 30 airplanes, and the second in late 2000 for two airplanes. UPS introduced the 767 Freighter into service in 1995. In 2005, UPS also ordered eight 747-400 Freighters, the first of which will be delivered about midyear 2007. In addition, UPS is a customer for the 747-400 BCF (Boeing Converted Freighter).
The UPS 767 Freighter fleet is powered by General Electric CF6-80C2 turbofans.
"UPS continues to be an innovative and world-class service provider, as well as an important Boeing customer," said Ray Conner, vice president, Sales - Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "The 767 Freighter is a proven airplane that has served UPS well, and this order constitutes a strong vote of confidence for the capabilities of the airplane."
"The Boeing 767-300ER freighter already is part of our current air fleet and we know from experience what a great workhorse it is," said UPS Vice President for Airline and International Operations Bob Lekites." It's also a good answer to our fleet management needs because it provides great flexibility, fast time in transit and sound cost performance. In addition, we already have the pilot training, ground support and maintenance systems in place, making for a seamless integration."

 

[DeuceOfAces]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

...and instead of just having fun at your expense, I'll back it up with facts:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q1/070215c_nr.html

Ding, ding, ding, you win! Google is my new best friend.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

DAAAAYUM!

What airline has billions of dollars of cash sitting around to buy brand new multi-million dollar airplanes?! Unless UPS is buying airplanes a few at a time I don't understand how that is financially feasible. But, I know that UPS doesn't buy factory-fresh airplanes, only used, so yeah, maybe they can afford that.

You couldn't be more wrong. The MD-11 and 2 747-400 BCFs are the only a/c in our current fleet that were not purchased new. We recently purchased 8 new 747-400Fs and are in the early stages of delivery of 27 additional
767Fs. All purchased with cash.

 

[DeuceOfAces]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

You couldn't be more wrong. The MD-11 and 2 747-400 BCFs are the only a/c in our current fleet that were not purchased new. We recently purchased 8 new 747-400Fs and are in the early stages of delivery of 27 additional
767Fs. All purchased with cash.

Yep. I dunno, maybe I was thinking about Fedex. And BTW (excuse the slight thread drift), do pilots have a say in what airplanes the company buys? Or does the Board of Directors decide all that and the pilots just fly whatever?

Oh, and do cockpits in new jets have that new-car smell? Or do they smell like, well, nothing. I've always wondered about that.

 

[A-300F4-622R]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

Yep. I dunno, maybe I was thinking about Fedex. And BTW (excuse the slight thread drift), do pilots have a say in what airplanes the company buys? Or does the Board of Directors decide all that and the pilots just fly whatever?

Oh, and do cockpits in new jets have that new-car smell? Or do they smell like, well, nothing. I've always wondered about that.

I've flown many brand new A-300s and they all had the cheap plastic new car smell. If you were to close you eyes and smell, you'd swear you were in a new car.

 

[E_Dawg]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

777 is old? Didn't that thing just come out? 1995 is just a baby in airline years... The 747s are from, what, 1969? Way back when we landed on the moon? And those things are still flying.

Man those must have been exciting times, middle class was still going strong, we were exploring freakin SPACE, supersonic airlines were all the rage - concorde first flew in '69. These days we're lucky if the market isn't down and we haven't foreclosed yet. Eh, got off on a tangent, as you were

 

[Polar742]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

777 is old? Didn't that thing just come out? 1995 is just a baby in airline years... The 747s are from, what, 1969? Way back when we landed on the moon? And those things are still flying.

Man those must have been exciting times, middle class was still going strong, we were exploring freakin SPACE, supersonic airlines were all the rage - concorde first flew in '69. These days we're lucky if the market isn't down and we haven't foreclosed yet. Eh, got off on a tangent, as you were

The first 777 got chopped up a couple years ago, I remember something in the news about that.

So the early 777s that UAL bought are coming up on the end of their 15 year life cycle.

Same goes with the 747. Boeing only supports the airplane until it's 35 years old, then they're done with it. However, the old model had the 747 classics as passenger birds for 15 years, at the end of that depreciation cycle, mod it for cargo and restart the depreciation clock.

 

[E_Dawg]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

Every time the be-99 comes up on it's depreciation clock a 'certain cargo carrier' just gets an extension from beechcraft. I think they have the highest time be-99 in the world. So bascially, every time the poor SOB climbs into it, he's a test pilot. jtrain would know more, but he's a lawyer now.

 

[Polar742]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

Every time the be-99 comes up on it's depreciation clock a 'certain cargo carrier' just gets an extension from beechcraft. I think they have the highest time be-99 in the world. So bascially, every time the poor SOB climbs into it, he's a test pilot. jtrain would know more, but he's a lawyer now.

A depreciation schedule is not a life limit schedule.

One is a financial tool.

I know what you're saying about life cycles and hours though. Different animals though.

 

[E_Dawg]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

A depreciation schedule is not a life limit schedule.

One is a financial tool.

I know what you're saying about life cycles and hours though. Different animals though.

Gotcha. I figure the -99 isn't pressurized so the only thing that is really at risk is the wing spar. And, really, who needs a wing spar anyways.

 

[Polar742]

Re: United Airlines orders Boeing 787, Airbus planes (AP

Gotcha. I figure the -99 isn't pressurized so the only thing that is really at risk is the wing spar. And, really, who needs a wing spar anyways.

I'll bet it's easier to replace the spar and gear than buy a new -99.