United 93 - Accident Investigation

I can confirm a lot of what Qutch has posted on here. I do not care to get involved with posting support about what I know or knew before (no I didn't know the exact date). Qutch knows a little more than he should but it doesn't matter at this point. Most people only believe what our media believes and even though people like Qutch might be able to convince a very small percentage of the population and even combined with the fact that CNN polls conducted many many years ago showed over 50% of Americans noticed a covered up; there is nothing you can do about it. Since the investigation was controlled by the same people responsible for the cover up, the people will never be exposed and that is a good thing. Most Americans could not hadle the truth. The last thing our country needs right now is to find out that our government had prior knowledge and could have done something to prevent thousands from dying, which thankfully will never happen. My condolences go out to all of those who have lost family members or loved ones involved with 9/11.
 
JordanD said:
That's pretty ridiculous in my eyes. I think it's pretty obvious what he meant to say "I saw THAT a plane had hit the World Trade Center", not that he saw the actual video of it happening. It's not like the guy ever misspoke or anything. ;)
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You might want to watch it again. "I saw an airplane hit the tower." I'm not sure how you heard, I saw "THAT" a plane....
 
Troy said:
I can confirm a lot of what Qutch has posted on here. I do not care to get involved with posting support about what I know or knew before (no I didn't know the exact date). Qutch knows a little more than he should but it doesn't matter at this point. Most people only believe what our media believes and even though people like Qutch might be able to convince a very small percentage of the population ------ Since the investigation was controlled by the same people responsible for the cover up, the people will never be exposed and that is a good thing. Most Americans could not hadle the truth. -----
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Well, maybe they'll take him out before he discloses what really happened at Roswell or locates the Lost City of Atlantis. But the more of this guy's stuff that I study around the net the better I think I understand where he is coming from. Doesn't matter whether he's talking to engineers, doctors, mathematicians, fighter pilots, whoever. He challenges people to think (uncomfortable - hopeless maybe, I might agree with Troy), but he's always prepared to "prove" his point and he always seems to connect in the end (even with his Zen fighter maneuver stuff on the Military Channel). In the case of this thread it climaxed with the 911 Commissioner videos he put up. Game over. Personally I'd rather know what really happened, however I get Troy's point I think. I'd prefer that those who didn't want to hear it would have just stayed off the thread instead of getting all hysterical in here. We get lots of serial flash posters in here just trying to earn that coveted "senior member" badge, but not enough Qutches who've done the research, have the experience, and come with something real to say, prepared to back it up like he did. I'd have thought JC would welcome raising the level of debate.


staledog said:
I think Darren was trying to say that Qutch is trying to get to get you to buy his book or something. Somehow I don't think Qutch is trying to sell us anything, except a better understanding of how things work in the real world.
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I agree. What makes his military and highly technical stuff interesting to read for me is that he writes in a style using fewer engineering, legal, medical, military and other acronyms and coded phrases than the people he talks to on techno-forums, so I can sort of understand it and follow the conversation. At least I can understand his end of the conversation which is otherwise pretty hard to do in specialized forums like aviation law, medical or engineering. And I can understand the links he puts up to back up what he says. He's not selling or asking his audience to take his word for anything, just hooking them up to information most haven't seen. On this thread it was the voices of the 911 Commissioners themselves saying that even they are riddled with doubt about their report's conclusions. Qutch didn't sell me on anything. The Commissioners did when they admitted that their 911 study was sabotaged. Game over.

Now, after the pathetic performance some put on in here (complete with multiple death threat posts) how do we persuade Qutch to participate on other threads? He raised the level of debate and, after hundreds of idiotic posts, finally put it to bed answering the core question. I don't recall ever reading such a dramatic resolution to a thread. Common Qutch. We're off to the next mystery I guess. Solve it for us before they take you out like Troy says.
 
JordanD said:
You really expect them to know specific details of every random exercise that NORAD planned years before he was even in office?
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he could have asked Cheney Rummy and many others who were around for all of it...including his Dad and mother...
 
SeanD said:
My mother gasped, cried and said "we had this information years ago" Referring from her days with the CIA.
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To be fair, intelligence agencies have LOTS of information. LOTS AND LOTS of it.

The key to the intelligence business is weeding out what is important and being able to predict the future from it. That's no small task...in fact, some of the most intelligent people on the planet struggle at it for years and years, and rarely get it right. It's a bit like weather prediction, I guess.

It's easy to go back after the fact and see the signs, just with everything else (seeing the chain of events leading up to an accident, for example). It's extremely difficult to see "the right information" and act on it when you're drowning in it.

Let's look at the other side of things -- the intelligence that was believed which led to the decision to invade Iraq. They chose to believe a certain number/type of reports, and ignore others. In this case, what they decided to believe appears in retrospect to have largely been wrong.

It is an incredibly difficult process...to say "we knew and didn't do anything about it" simply because there was information out there that the CIA knew about is being intellectually dishonest.
 
JordanD said:
You really expect them to know specific details of every random exercise that NORAD planned years before he was even in office?
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It wasn't a random exercise. There were 5 hijack training events run each month starting 2 years prior and 4 major training events per year involving operations simulating hijacked plane crashes into US buildings (one being the WTC). These drills were being managed by Cheney, who took over the role just prior to 9/11. The last drill of hijacked planes crashing into buildings conducted before 911 was on the early morning of 911. I guess I could buy your thoery if Bush didn't talk to his VP much.
 
Are you guys still arguing with the kids? Why are you wasting your time? In a few years they'll realize how crazy they sounded. Just give it time. Arguing with them will do no good.

staledog said:
Somehow I don't think Qutch is trying to sell us anything, except a better understanding of how things work in the real world.
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And what evidence do we have exactly that Qutch has any understanding whatsoever of the "real world?" He is a nameless, faceless web board poster who has made a lot of claims about begin involved in a lot of "high level" stuff going back "decades." In case you've forgotten, we're on the internets, and people can claim to be whoever they want to be when hiding behind screen names. I know who people like Jtrain or Surreal are, because I've met them. This guy Qutch, on the other hand, is an unknown who could be some college kid hiding in his parent's basement searching conspiracy theory sites all day long and trolling the message boards for people who will bite on his story. So far he seems to me to be no different than any other crazy conspiracy nut who spends all of his time on the internet. Until I've met him and see some evidence to back up his story, I'm not buying any of it.

Now, carry on with the arguing with college kids.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
This guy Qutch, on the other hand, is an unknown who could be some college kid hiding in his parent's basement searching conspiracy theory sites all day long and trolling the message boards for people who will bite on his story. So far he seems to me to be no different than any other crazy conspiracy nut who spends all of his time on the internet. Until I've met him and see some evidence to back up his story, I'm not buying any of it.

Now, carry on with the arguing with college kids.
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Dude, seriously? A college age kid in his mothers basement? Have you read his posts on the military forum about fix to fix navigation? You should probably go do that. I suppose in your opinion he could be Rain Man and make up all that stuff including his very legitimate sounding background of him being in the human factors department of a military pilot wing.
 
hambone said:
Dude, seriously? A college age kid in his mothers basement? Have you read his posts on the military forum about fix to fix navigation? You should probably go do that. I suppose in your opinion he could be Rain Man and make up all that stuff including his very legitimate sounding background of him being in the human factors department of a military pilot wing.
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I don't have time to research the posting history of every conspiracy nut. Regardless, knowing about navigation has nothing to do with verifying his claims of being involved in government commissions, giving testimony to Congressional committees, etc. In my experience, people who brag about such things are typically liars, and people who have really done those things tend to keep it to themselves.
 
I first strayed away from this thread because I knew the number of "conspiracy theory" debunkers and such would come out of the wood work. But it's quite relieving to see that most of them have been put to rest or got whatever they needed to say out of their system.

Now, I don't want to label myself as a "conspiracy theorist" but I do like to see and hear more than one side of a story. I got this video years ago to see what it contained and was quite surprised and intrigued at the information it contains. You can choose this side, or you can choose that side, or you can choose to listen to both and form your own hypothesis. I haven't seen this video referenced or posted yet, so I'd like to share this link with you guys. If you happen to have an extra hour to spare on a layover or time to burn, or your simply interested in hearing a different story than what the mainstream media will give you. Please give this a watch:



LOOSE CHANGE: 2nd Edition



[YT]Fu_6_PvSbg4[/YT]
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Are you guys still arguing with the kids? Why are you wasting your time? In a few years they'll realize how crazy they sounded. Just give it time. Arguing with them will do no good.
And what evidence do we have exactly that Qutch has any understanding whatsoever of the "real world?" He is a nameless, faceless web board poster who has made a lot of claims about begin involved in a lot of "high level" stuff going back "decades." In case you've forgotten, we're on the internets, and people can claim to be whoever they want to be when hiding behind screen names. I know who people like Jtrain or Surreal are, because I've met them. This guy Qutch, on the other hand, is an unknown who could be some college kid hiding in his parent's basement searching conspiracy theory sites all day long and trolling the message boards for people who will bite on his story. So far he seems to me to be no different than any other crazy conspiracy nut who spends all of his time on the internet. Until I've met him and see some evidence to back up his story, I'm not buying any of it.

Now, carry on with the arguing with college kids.
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I admit, I do get tired of arguing with the kids sometimes. I agree that you can't trust who people say they are on the internet but if even if you ignore his whole story and focus only on the support and facts that Qutch posted you might agree that the investigation was a joke. You can't argue with what the people on the commission say about their own investigation off the official record.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't have time to research the posting history of every conspiracy nut. Regardless, knowing about navigation has nothing to do with verifying his claims of being involved in government commissions, giving testimony to Congressional committees, etc. In my experience, people who brag about such things are typically liars, and people who have really done those things tend to keep it to themselves.
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Well I've read every one of his posts, and it's very obvious he knows what he's talking about. It's a lot more than just "knowing about navigation", and he hasn't been bragging about anything. You say these things because you don't have the time to read his posts (I will admit, there's plenty to read), but if you did find the time you just might change your tune. Maybe even learn something in the process. Also he's not here spouting tales of missile-firing or remote control airplanes, holograms, or explosives within buildings. He's been giving a history lesson and backing it up with factual information that anyone could find for themselves if they knew where to look (many don't).

Even if you don't know them personally, you can tell a lot about a person (yes, even here on the interwebs) by what they have to say and the way they present themselves. You should take the time to actually read and absorb his posts in this thread before passing judgment.

By the way, I'm not a college kid either. :beer:
 
Jet said:
I agree that you can't trust who people say they are on the internet but if even if you ignore his whole story and focus only on the support and facts that Qutch posted you might agree that the investigation was a joke. You can't argue with what the people on the commission say about their own investigation off the official record.
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Yeah I was gonna say that too, but I forgot.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't have time to research the posting history of every conspiracy nut. Regardless, knowing about navigation has nothing to do with verifying his claims of being involved in government commissions, giving testimony to Congressional committees, etc. In my experience, people who brag about such things are typically liars, and people who have really done those things tend to keep it to themselves.
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If you're here just to post your intolerant, irrational view, and just try to take down a poster by labeling him insane without even considering any of what he says, why are you even posting?

And for the record, someone who believes everything that the government says without any skepticism whatsoever is exactly the same as someone who does not. Get off your high horse.
 
hambone said:
If you're here just to post your intolerant, irrational view, and just try to take down a poster by labeling him insane without even considering any of what he says, why are you even posting?

And for the record, someone who believes everything that the government says without any skepticism whatsoever is exactly the same as someone who does not. Get off your high horse.
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Where was he irrational? And really, you're going to call him out for that in this thread? ROFL!
 
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