United 93 - Accident Investigation

nice... thanks for the clarification. You like the moderators better in there?

Are we trying to throw up a smoke screen and drag the thread off topic again? I was just trying to point out how helpful moderators can be in keeping things polite, professional and on topic. I don't post a lot but I do read and research a lot, and moderators can help or hinder the conversation, drive people off or encourage knowledegable participation. But moderators aren't hambone's topic, nor mine. Government credibility and the reliability of their reports with regard to civilian aviation are. Are there still objections to hambone's topic?
 
Are we trying to throw up a smoke screen and drag the thread off topic again? I was just trying to point out how helpful moderators can be in keeping things polite, professional and on topic. I don't post a lot but I do read and research a lot, and moderators can help or hinder the conversation, drive people off or encourage knowledegable participation. But moderators aren't hambone's topic, nor mine. Government credibility and the reliability of their reports with regard to civilian aviation are. Are there still objections to hambone's topic?
if you read my posts I said I was intrigued by some of the points raised. You did, however, take a swipe at the moderation in this part of the forum by saying the other part was more professional....now the mods are the same, maybe it's the posters they are relating to that are less professional?


please feel free to continue the other conversation, I think we are intelligent enough to pay attention to two at once...just like at a dinner party.
 
if you read my posts I said I was intrigued by some of the points raised. You did, however, take a swipe at the moderation in this part of the forum by saying the other part was more professional....now the mods are the same, maybe it's the posters they are relating to that are less professional?

Point made. The military guys are a very different group. Thanks for the clarification.

And to be fair, I've seen some great dialogue and gotten some good help in the civilian CFI corner also. Not much clowning around and no personal attacks. First rate. So I don't want this to be turned into an alleged attack on civilians and have to devote the next 2 days to defending that accusation. My apologies if I offended ALL the moderators. That wasn't my intention. Thanks again for pointing that out.

And maybe that is what is so puzzling about this particular thread. Everytime hambone or flying bum or jet or anyone else gets on here to address the core subject the room suddenly fills up with moderators and posters tossing out personal insults, trivia, calls for the death of the people asking the questions (unchallenged by the moderators), and frantic attempts to change the subject. What the bleep is going on here? Why don't the people who claim they are not interested in this subject just go to another thread instead of trying to sabotage this one? There are an enormous number of professed "disinterested" parties spending gobs of time in this thread trying to clog it up. Is this thread that they claim they are "not" interested in the most interesting thread on JC? Can't they find something else to do?
 
Because the government said that if we don't cut down the speculation in this thread, they're going to send the BATF and shut us down.
 
Article that I found interesting yesterday whilst browsing this thread on the topic:


HOME / TRUTHERISM : THE RISE AND FALL OF THE 9/11 CONSPIRACY THEORY.

The Theory vs. the Facts
9/11 conspiracy theorists responded to refutations by alleging more cover-ups.
By Jeremy Stahl
Updated Wednesday, Sept. 7, 2011, at 7:31 AM ET


Thomas H. Kean, chairman of the 9/11 Commission
It's difficult to pinpoint a precise moment when the popularity of the 9/11 conspiracy theory peaked, though it was probably sometime in 2006. In tracking its decline, however, three dates stand out: July 22, 2004, when the 9/11 Commission released its final report; Feb. 3, 2005, when Popular Mechanics published its 5,500-word article dismantling the movement's claims; and Aug. 21, 2008, when the National Institute of Standards and Technology issued the final portion of a $16 million study investigating the cause of the collapse of the Twin Towers and a third World Trade Center skyscraper that was not hit by a plane.


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Facts alone are insufficient to destroy a conspiracy theory, of course, and in many ways a theory's appeal has more to do with the receptiveness of its audience than the accuracy of its details. The popularity of the 9/11 conspiracy theory would continue to ebb and flow after each of these reports. But their responses to these challenges show how followers of the 9/11 conspiracy theory changed their emphases and arguments
 
Article that I found interesting yesterday whilst browsing this thread on the topic:


HOME / TRUTHERISM : THE RISE AND FALL OF THE 9/11 CONSPIRACY THEORY.

The Theory vs. the Facts
9/11 conspiracy theorists responded to refutations by alleging more cover-ups.
By Jeremy Stahl
Updated Wednesday, Sept. 7, 2011, at 7:31 AM ET


Thomas H. Kean, chairman of the 9/11 Commission
It's difficult to pinpoint a precise moment when the popularity of the 9/11 conspiracy theory peaked, though it was probably sometime in 2006. In tracking its decline, however, three dates stand out: July 22, 2004, when the 9/11 Commission released its final report; Feb. 3, 2005, when Popular Mechanics published its 5,500-word article dismantling the movement's claims; and Aug. 21, 2008, when the National Institute of Standards and Technology issued the final portion of a $16 million study investigating the cause of the collapse of the Twin Towers and a third World Trade Center skyscraper that was not hit by a plane.




PRINT
DISCUSS
E-MAIL
RSS
RECOMMEND...
REPRINTS
SINGLE PAGE
Facts alone are insufficient to destroy a conspiracy theory, of course, and in many ways a theory's appeal has more to do with the receptiveness of its audience than the accuracy of its details. The popularity of the 9/11 conspiracy theory would continue to ebb and flow after each of these reports. But their responses to these challenges show how followers of the 9/11 conspiracy theory changed their emphases and arguments


What would a bunch of scientist and MIT geeks know anyway. :crazy:
 
Article that I found interesting yesterday whilst browsing this thread on the topic:


HOME / TRUTHERISM : THE RISE AND FALL OF THE 9/11 CONSPIRACY THEORY.

The Theory vs. the Facts
9/11 conspiracy theorists responded to refutations by alleging more cover-ups.
By Jeremy Stahl
Updated Wednesday, Sept. 7, 2011, at 7:31 AM ET


Thomas H. Kean, chairman of the 9/11 Commission
It's difficult to pinpoint a precise moment when the popularity of the 9/11 conspiracy theory peaked, though it was probably sometime in 2006. In tracking its decline, however, three dates stand out: July 22, 2004, when the 9/11 Commission released its final report; Feb. 3, 2005, when Popular Mechanics published its 5,500-word article dismantling the movement's claims; and Aug. 21, 2008, when the National Institute of Standards and Technology issued the final portion of a $16 million study investigating the cause of the collapse of the Twin Towers and a third World Trade Center skyscraper that was not hit by a plane.


Thanks. That's persuasive. Now what bothers me, and I think other people, is this. While the FBI, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the 911 Commission, and various US publications are putting out respectable reports stating that it was Arab terrorists and Arab terrorists alone who pulled off 911, credible members of those organizations are coming out as whistleblowers suggesting (and sometimes complaining) that undue influence was used to craft those reports to conform with the Goverment's story. That critical information was round filed, and that the reports can't be relied upon. In fact, there seems to be growing consensus that lies were told and critical ommissions were made, but the explanations run the course between an attempt to cover up incompetence, and the other far extreme of the "inside job." I'd like to dismiss the inside job theory also, but the more declassified Ops reports I read, it seems clear that not only has our governement admitted to sucessfully running similar Ops before, but they've admitting (in the past) to having Intelligence people on the payroll of the US and foreign press to shape US opinion (Operation Mockingbird). Now I realize that those are a lot of wild accusations, but if I don't get buried in trash and attacks, and am permitted to politely submit the material I've found, I'll submit evidence which suggests that the offical and press reports that hambone talks about can't always be taken at face value.

Below is the first - on past manipulation of the Press by US Intelligence. I don't submit it as proof of a 911 conspiracy, nor as an attempt to discredit your Popular Mechanics submission. I put it up only to demonstrate that any beliefs or comforts we have that the US government would never dream of manipulating the press or be able to infiltrate the press, are not supported by declassified Congressional hearings. I think that the same evidence exists that Universities (like MIT) and trusted government commissions have also been manipulated to get a preordained Offical Report result. If I am permitted, I'll submit evidence of those in future posts. In the end it may not change any minds that are made up, but it makes me less sure of my previous convictions, and less confident in our press.

Thanks for the Popular Mechanics post.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8_FckHV3T8 Senator Frank Church holds Senate hearings on CIA manipulation of the commercial press. CIA Director Colby gets nervous and ask for persmission to answer questions in Executive (secret) Session. Apparently he wasn't able to flatly deny the accusations so he wanted the cameras out of the room.
.
 
Pugetsoundman, I totally hear you. However, I think that you and Qutch have demonstrated what's really important here. The human mind is a complex subject that we will never fully understand. There are many reasons why we got flack for discussing this sensitive subject. I remember a friend of mine bringing a lot of information to my attention a long time ago.I didn't want to believe it, and I didn't at first. I thought, why would my friend say this stuff, it can't be true. Well I finally figured out I had to find out for myself. And ohhh boy, was I in for a shocker. Not only was this stuff true, I found even more information than my friend had. The lesson I learned was painful reality, reality that only the truth brings. As humans, our stubborn minds like to create our own little bubble, a comfort zone, a place where we are safe. Asking others to break out of their bubble is like asking a die hard to convert to another religion. They need to find it themselves, some never will. It's easier to dwell inside of comfort.

I personally love history, history about everything, I knew about false flags, the CIA (Criminals In Action), and many other fallacies. (The Fed) cough, cough. Fast forward to modern history (Last 30-40 years), the information is astounding, and I'm not talking about the crap they are teaching kids these days. I'm talking about REAL history, once you start with a solid base it's easy to weed out the junk in scholastic textbooks, and what you watch on the news. Which brings me to my next point. It is hard to find good sources, not credible sources. So called "credible" sources will lie to your face because they get paid well. The idea is to find truthful sources. For instance, that Popular Mechanics article is huge load of (you know what). Are they credible? Sure? I guess? Does that mean it's honest? The answer is no, publishing an article doesn't make it honest.

I will finish by saying that the truth behind 9/11 is.... the truth, will we ever know, probably not. But I don't think people should ever stop asking, or demanding in some cases. 9/11 is just one of many things that we don't fully know about. I think the whole thing was a tragedy no matter how you look at and who's behind it. Unfortunately there are things going on right now that are detrimental to our whole society. The most interesting (to me), is how the so called terrorists went from Arabs, to us. Yup, that's right, according to our own gov., we're the terrorists. Watching the U.S. turn into a fascist police state is disturbing. VERY disturbing, which is why I like to say, " I don't make the rules, I just live here".

My advice to everyone. Defend yourselves and the constitution, it's all you got.
 
. CIA Director Colby gets nervous and ask for persmission to answer questions in Executive (secret) Session. Apparently he wasn't able to flatly deny the accusations so he wanted the cameras out of the room.
.

there is no censorship here, and I think your request to have a reasoned examination is fair...

[modhat]let's let this run with facts and conjecture, not be frivolous and let's be respectful. Patriots often take an opposing view.[/modhat]
If you have rebuttal then bring it, if you have supporting arguments bring it...let's see how mature we can be when we put our mind to it. I know there are many that won't even consider that there could possibly have been support from Americans for such a heinous act... that's OK. There are many who are certain that Americans who (misguidedly) believe their actions could make the nation stronger might have played a support role.


I will repeat from a patriots perspective...


Defend yourselves and the constitution, it's all you got.
 
I still subscribe that there was no conspiracy ingle the mission was carried out, the planes were hijacked, buildings fell on their own. I do subscribe to the notion that our govt (rogue or authorized) may have started the mission, helped with intel/training, or knew about it and did nothing.
 
There are many who are certain that Americans who (misguidedly) believe their actions could make the nation stronger might have played a support role.


I will repeat from a patriots perspective...


Defend yourselves and the constitution, it's all you got.

That's the problem, it hasn't made us stronger. It's weakened us, severely. Chasing the boogieman is destroying our society.

Thanks, I never thought of myself as a PATRIOT. That's quite a complement. :love: I feel like I just got a "great landing" complement from all my passengers after a greaser....
 
My questions (or hambone's as I read him) are not limited to the body count. I'm not sure how these thread missions get hijacked and steered off course. As Doug Taylor pointed out, this is an aviation web site (not a body count website). Like hambone I want to know how accurate government investigations and reports of aircraft incidents are, what the history and capacity of government is for deception, and most of all, the potential impacts on civilian aviation. So below I have attached an aviation related portion of the actual Northwood documents. Its clear to me after reading the entire documents that the joint chiefs gave Kennedy a choice of lethal or faked casulties, but they were clearly offering real mahem and complex plans to deceive the public. Now how is all that unrelated to pilot interests or this forum? Even if government has since been taken over by doves and angels, its still damn interesting, and it proves that (at least in past) the military felt comfortable proposing bizarre government conspiracies involving civilian aviation.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf (From George Washington Universtiy)

Page 8 #3b - "(faked) Casualty lists in newspapers would cause a helpful wave of indigation."

Page 8 #4 - "We could develop a Communist terror campaign in the Miami area, Florida cities and even in Washington. The arrest of Cuban agents and the release of prepared documents would also be helpful (in framing the communists). ......exploding a few plastic bombs ...."

Page 9 #6 - "Use of MIG type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harrassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping...by Mig type planes.... reasonable copies of the MIG could be produced from US sources..."

Page 10 #7 - Hijacking attempts against civil air...."

Page 10 #8 - "It is possible to create an incident that will demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civil airliner..."



You are correct. It appears that Kennedy refused to consider a plan to murder Americans and blame it on Cuban/communist sympathisizers. Instead he fired the chairman of the joint chiefs and the head of the CIA. Then, in another bizarre twist, a short time later Kennedy himself was coincidentally murdered by an alleged Cuban/Communist sympathizer, who was himself quickly murdered. There was no trial, just another government report cloaked by classified documents that Americans were not allowed to see. But any more about Kennedy would be off topic. I want to keep it on aviation related subject matter. And that's the problem. We seem to have driven off hambone, flying bum and the guys who were on to this stuff by burying this thread in trivia, jokes and personal attacks. Anybody care to invite hambone back to continue his thoughts without being slammed? With 5000 views in a week, his questions must be relevent to more people than just me.

So why didn't we just invade and/or nuke Cuba during the bay of pigs if we were really looking for a war with them? I think we had pretty good justification when Russia and their nukes set up shop in Cuba.
 
So why didn't we just invade and/or nuke Cuba during the bay of pigs if we were really looking for a war with them? I think we had pretty good justification when Russia and their nukes set up shop in Cuba.

Most people have no idea how close we came to that happening...if you read about it, we came VERY VERY close. And it would have been nuclear, and horrible. (they had nukes pointed right at us, too). Thanks in part to JFK, it didn't happen.
 
O.K. Now that the Delta Force commando military moderators have parachuted in to protect us, I'll test the waters one more time and contribute something here. Hambone and Jet are with Dick Cheney at an undisclosed location, but hopefully they'll forward some of their research to me and I'll post it . . We'll try to get a little collaborative effort going here to make this more comprehensible.

To save time, for those of you who have expressed that Cold War history has no bearing and provides no insight into this period of history, I recommend that you skip this post and wait for the post on the 911 Commission itself. . However, history buffs should appreciate this.


Originally Posted by PugetSoundMan "...credible members of those organizations are coming out as whistleblowers suggesting (and sometimes complaining)"

Can you post more info backing it up?


As a prelude to answering Gonzo's question I'd like to provide some set-up background info and insight into Official Commissions that most of us never get to see. . It will help provide insight into the 911 Commission itself, which will be discussed later . . What I say about Government Commissions here will not sit well with some of you, but I hope you'll hold your criticisms before you go on the attack . . They're not conspiratorial claims exactly. . They just reflect life in the real world of Washington D.C. . The power players pick Commissioners and set rules most likely to support a conclusion that won't be embarrassing to them. . First I'll explain this, then I'll back it up with the evidence. .

My first exposure to Official Commissions and Congressional investigations came a few decades ago . . I found myself sitting in the Pentagon being briefed by a Lt. Colonel in preparation for my potential testimony and interviews by Congressional investigators looking into an aviation R&D project I was working on . . I was pretty excited about taking part in this real serious big time investigation and hearings. . Except that, as the Colonel talked I realized that he was instructing me to lie . . The Pentagon's chief concern was with protecting their budget, not with the true results of the study . . I was shocked and confused. . When I got to the Hill, a Congressional Science Advisor/investigator, seeing that I was naïve and way out of my element, took pity on me and explained the facts of life to me. . There would be no real investigation . . A choreographed kabuki dance was being orchestrated with a predetermined conclusion . . The project and evidence I had collected would take a back seat to budgets and politics. . The Official Report, if it ever got that far, had already been written . . My testimony, if it ever got that far, would be choreographed to support the Official Conclusion, which had already been written to justify budgets . . Rather than bore everybody with the details of my insignificant study and time in D.C., I'm going to use a famous Commission that everybody is already familiar with in order to illustrate . . If you follow this story, you'll understand the 911 Commission much better, and for some of you at I hope, it will support my claims . .


Quoted from Flying Bum ""I remember a friend of mine bringing a lot of information to my attention a long time ago.I didn't want to believe it, and I didn't at first. I thought, why would my friend say this stuff, it can't be true. Well I finally figured out I had to find out for myself. And ohhh boy, was I in for a shocker. Not only was this stuff true, I found even more information than my friend had. The lesson I learned was painful reality.""



Intro -
What happened in the JFK years provides a window with which to better understand what is happening now . . And the Warren Commission is a kind of Rosetta Stone for understanding Official Commissions and the reliability of those Commissions, for those who've never participated in one. . It's also the most bizarre story I've ever investigated . . When we're finished unveiling the behind the scenes secrets of the Warren Commission (with solid evidence not reported by the major news organizations), then we'll unveil the behind-the-scenes workings of the 911 Commission (with more solid evidence that’s not being widely reported now). . First though, the Warren Commission report into the assassination of JFK . .

The Commission -
We've all heard the irritating kooks who dare question the Warren Commission findings: that a lone gunman shot JFK from the 6th floor of the Book Depository Building . . Crazy contradicting theories about 'surgically altering JFK's body', 'gunmen on the grassy knoll', "Lee Harvey Oswald was innocent," 'Oswald was murdered to prevent a trial and further the cover-up', Govt. agents rushing into newspapers dictating the text of the Dallas reporting.' Really crazy stupid stuff . . Conspiracy theorists . . We all know the real truth. . The Commission's findings have never been refuted . .

Questioning the Official conclusion -
Or have their findings been refuted? Certainly the major media would have told us if there had ever been a crack in the Commission's findings. Right?

The Untold Story -
Well as it turns out, as the Warren Commissioners aged and witnesses died, cracks began to appear in the Commission's findings. . Big giant gaping cracks . . Cracks reported by a few small town local media, but not reported by the big media companies. . As a result, few people know the story you will see below . . From the medical personnel at Parkland Hospital in Dallas, to the military medical technicians at Bethesda Naval Hospital where the autopsy was performed, people began retracting their support for the Official story. . Eventually Warren Commissioners themselves began withdrawing their support . . They were joined by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry (who was riding in the car ahead of Kennedy). . He too joined the Commissioners in expressing doubt . . Others admitted that they outright lied to conform to the official story, the Oswald lone gunman story . .

The Evidence -
I don't know what happened to JFK . . What I do know is that the people who were there, the people who were front-and-center in the investigation, they didn't believe the Official story . . And I know that the major media we rely on never really reported that fact to us . . To the contrary, by-and-large the media continues to support the Official Warren Commission findings, and they join in ridiculing anyone who questions it . . Below is a brief sample of the evidence I promised that, contrary to their public claims and media reports, the Commission was fractured. . The public was never told . .(for those who want more on JFK, contact me privately and I'll tell you where to find the full untold story.) What does this have to do with the 911 Commission and its findings with regard to Flight 93? I'll post that next if PugetSM doesn't beat me to it. .
Below- a small sample of the people who were there who didn't believe the Official Story. The Official Story is not settled history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tosw3kKsKDY President LBJ had a secret recording system in the Oval Office. LBJ wanted Texas and the Congress to halt their investigations into JFK's murder. . This is a recorded conversation between FBI Director Hoover and LBJ discussing how they can get the country to accept Hoover's already written conclusion that Oswald, and Oswald alone committed the murder. . The Official report had been written prior to the investigation. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY4qwAocdnA President Gerald Ford's declassified FBI file reveals that all of the Commissioners did not really agree with the report's conclusion. .

Assassination of President Kennedy (clip) Senator Cooper- Commissioner reveals that he didn't really believe the Official version of the story that he signed off on -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7Zk5LNWY8U (Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry agreeing with Professor Peter Scott that the evidence indicated that a second gunman was involved)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeSug5GVCg8 (President LBJ expressed doubts)


A Single Point to Make - My Point in submitting this post is to illustrate a single issue. The Conclusions of Official Commissions are often written prior to the investigation. . The evidence and witnesses are often selected to support that conclusion. . The Official Hearings are sometimes a kabuki dance, a choreographed performance designed to validate the pre-written report. . In the end, many of the people closest to the JFK event and the Warren Commission investigation did not believe the Official story. . So why do we reflexively ridicule people we hear questioning the JFK assassination and Warren Report, since the people who were there had serious doubts about the Official Story? If they were not sure what happened, why are we so sure? Contrary to popular belief, there is still an open question. . My personal experience with government fact-finding Commissions causes me to hesitate with regards to the 911 Commission. . I don't want to get caught quoting the 911 Commission's findings, when I suspect that the conclusion was pre-written, and the Commissioners themselves will start backing away from supporting their own report . . The evidence to support my suspicion will be posted next .. We'll back it up. .
 
The public was never told . .(for those who want more on JFK, contact me privately and I'll tell you where to find the full untold story.)

All I want to say is that this pretty much sums up the method and motivation of every conspiracy theorist I have encountered.
 
WHoops, sorry, I had "iPad Cut 'n Paste" epic fail. Lemme try again on the computer:

It's difficult to pinpoint a precise moment when the popularity of the 9/11 conspiracy theory peaked, though it was probably sometime in 2006. In tracking its decline, however, three dates stand out: July 22, 2004, when the 9/11 Commission released its final report; Feb. 3, 2005, when Popular Mechanicspublished its 5,500-word article dismantling the movement's claims; and Aug. 21, 2008, when the National Institute of Standards and Technology issued the final portion of a $16 million study investigating the cause of the collapse of the Twin Towers and a third World Trade Center skyscraper that was not hit by a plane.

Facts alone are insufficient to destroy a conspiracy theory, of course, and in many ways a theory's appeal has more to do with thereceptiveness of its audience than the accuracy of its details. The popularity of the 9/11 conspiracy theory would continue to ebb and flow after each of these reports. But their responses to these challenges show how followers of the 9/11 conspiracy theory changed their emphases and arguments—or, more often, did not—when presented with new information.
***
The Popular Mechanics article may never have been published were it not for a $3 million national ad campaign by an eccentric millionaire to promote a self-published book called Painful Questions. The campaign posited that the World Trade Center was brought down in a controlled demolition and that the Pentagon was never hit by a jetliner, and asked questions about whether the fires in the Twin Towers were sufficiently hot to bring about their collapse or whether the hole in the Pentagon was big enough to fit a commercial airplane. When Popular Mechanics Editor James Meigs saw the ad, he says, "I thought, well, we're Popular Mechanics and we've been reporting about what happens when planes crash, how skyscrapers are built, for 100 years. Let's actually answer the questions."


So the magazine went about reporting out some of the most interesting and serious conspiracy theories, and responding to them based on interviews with more than 70 experts in aviation, engineering and the military. Its article found that all of the supposedly scientific evidence for government involvement in 9/11 was based on shoddy research and, to a large extent, manipulated and misleading argumentation. The piece remains the most widely read story the magazine has ever published, with more than 7.5 million page views.

"We were the first people to actually take the conspiracy theory claims seriously and address them very directly," Meigs says. "And the reaction was so overwhelmingly hostile, and kind of scary, that it was a real education in how these groups work and think." Among the responses was a report by anti-Zionist conspiracist Christopher Bollyn, who claimed to have discovered why the 100-year-old engineering magazine would take part in a government cover-up of the crime of the century: A young researcher on the magazine's staff named Benjamin Chertoff was a cousin of then-Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, and the magazine was seeking to whitewash the criminal conspiracy with its coverage.


Never mind that Chertoff had not been in his position when the story was being written, and Benjamin Chertoff had never met the man who he said might be a distant cousin. The mere mention of the connection was sufficient for conspiracists to dismiss the report.

"That was interesting. A little bit scary I think for Ben, but also kind of comical," Meigs said. "Imagine the scenario. Let's say somebody at Slate is related to Dick Cheney and all of a sudden he said, 'Hey guys, I need everybody to work with me on this: We're going to all get together to cover up the biggest mass murder in American history. Are you with me?' "

The Popular Mechanics article was turned into a book called Debunking 9/11 Myths, which came to include interviews with more than 300 sources and eyewitnesses. David Ray Griffin responded with his own book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking in 2007, in which he reiterated theories that he said had not been adequately debunked, claimed that the only successful debunking Popular Mechanics had done was of straw men, and repeated the Chertoff cover-up accusation.

It's worth lingering over Griffin's response to illustrate a typical reaction among conspiracy theorists to refutation. One of the bedrocks of the conspiracy theory is that U.S. military planes should have been easily able to intercept any of the four hijacked airplanes on 9/11 to prevent the attack. The Popular Mechanics article notes that only one NORAD interception of a civilian airplane over North America had occurred in the decade before 9/11, of golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, and that it took one hour and 19 minutes to intercept before it ultimately crashed. Based on initial reports that misread the official crash report, conspiracists had previously cited the Stewart case as evidence that it normally only took NORAD 19 minutes to intercept civilian aircraft.

"That's a very debated thing," Griffin told me. "It looks like somebody has kind of changed the story there. I don't know what happened, but I've read enough about it to look like that's not true that it took that long." And what about other physical evidence that debunks the interception theory, specifically the NORAD tapes, which document the chaos and confusion of American air defenses that morning in painstaking detail? Griffin's response is that the tapes have likely been doctored using morphing technology to fake the voices of the government officials and depict phony chaos according to a government-written script. It's not surprising, he says, that after 9/11, mainstream historical accounts would be revised to fit the official narrative.

"This is a self-confirming hypothesis for the people who hold it," Meigs says. "In that sense it is immune from any kind of refutation and it is very similar to, if you've ever known a really hardcore, doctrinaire Marxist or a hardcore fundamentalist creationist. They have sort of a divine answer to every argument you might make."
***
Another article of faith among conspiracy theorists is that the conspiracy would not have to have been very large. In Crossing the Rubicon, Michael Ruppert writes that there didn't have to be any more than two dozen people with complete foreknowledge of the attacks to orchestrate 9/11, and that they would all be "bound to silence by Draconian secrecy oaths." But those numbers begin to balloon out of control if all of the people and institutions accused of playing a part in the cover-up are counted. They would have to have included the CIA; the Justice Department; the FAA; NORAD; American and United Airlines; FEMA; Popular Mechanics and other media outlets; state and local law enforcement agencies in Pennsylvania, Virginia, and New York; the National Institute of Standards and Technology; and, finally and perhaps most prominently, the 9/11 Commission.

Of the alleged conspirators in the cover-up, few play a greater role than Philip Zelikow, the 9/11 Commission's executive director. A career academic and diplomat, he was asked to resign from his post in 2004 by representatives of 9/11 families because of an alleged conflict of interest stemming from his role on George W. Bush's transition team. Zelikow recused himself from any part of the investigation dealing with the time period that he worked with the transition team, but his presence on the commission is all the conspiracists needed to discredit the entire report.

"I play a very prominent part in their demonology of the world, but the people themselves don't come across like raving lunatics," Zelikow says. "They're often people who in many respects seem quite sincere, very concerned, very patient. They just are fixated." The obsessive nature of conspiracism makes it very difficult to discuss or debate issues with some of the more hardcore believers. "They're not really able to listen to you," Zelikow says. "It's almost like you'll say something and then the tape will just replay its loop again."

In 2007 a conspiracist confronted Zelikow in public with the "fact" that many of the hijackers are still alive. Zelikow responded that the 9/11 Commission had looked into the claims and foundnothing to them but could not fit every single debunked conspiracy theory into the final version of the report. The questioner's reply was to repeat his accusation. I had a similar experience on the same topic when questioning Griffin, who begins his book The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions with the "hijackers are still alive" theory. I sent him an email pointing out that this theory relied on discredited media reports—the "hijackers" they had found were just people with the same names as the hijackers. In response, he emailed me a chapter on the topic from one of his books and said he was too busy to discuss the issue further.

Another common conspiracist tactic is to obsess over minor points of contention and exaggerate the importance of often easily explained inconsistencies in very hard evidence, such as phone calls victims made to family members on the ground describing the hijackings. For example, Griffin says that the phone calls, records of which were made public as part of the 9/11 Commission, were faked by "voice-morphing" technology that fooled family members on the ground.
***

All the same, some conspiracy theorists have actually retreated from their more difficult-to-prove claims, such as the argument that no commercial plane hit the Pentagon. "They are focusing most of their attention on the World Trade Center stuff, where they're clinging to a few of these now pretty well-rebutted engineering hypotheses," Zelikow says. The most successful purveyor of these hypotheses is Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth founder Richard Gage. In March 2006 Gage heard Griffin argue on the radio that quotes from firemen provided evidence of controlled explosions in the World Trade Center. Gage was floored. "I couldn't even get back to the office, I had to pull the car over," he says. Gage tried to attend a Griffin lecture in Oakland the very next day, but the 600-person hall was full and he had to settle for listening to a live webstream. Within a couple of weeks he had created a PowerPoint presentation about this theory and started proselytizing to co-workers.

Two months later he started Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, and soon after that he became a full-time activist, spreading his message that the World Trade Center investigation by the National Institute of Standards and Technology was a fraud and that there needed to be an "independent" investigation. The petition he started at the time now has signatures from more than 1,500 licensed or degreed architects and engineers, and he is considered one of the movement's most persuasive leaders. Like Griffin, Gage argues that the three-year-long, $16 million NISTinvestigation, the work of nearly 100 NIST investigators, staff, and independent experts and consultants, was part of the criminal cover-up. "We're calling for a federal grand jury investigation of the lead investigator and his co-project leader," Gage says. "Whoever's names are on those reports need to be investigated."

Dozens of peer-reviewed papers have been written that support the official hypotheses, but those are dismissed as well. Both Gage and Griffin do, however, point to the movement's own peer-reviewed paper, published by former BYU professor Steven Jones and Danish scientist Niels Harrit. Because traditional controlled demolitions would have been audible throughout lower Manhattan had they actually occurred on 9/11, conspiracists have been forced to posit a very obscure scientific explanation for their central thesis: that the demolitions used an incendiary chemical called nano-thermite. Jones and Harrit argued in their paper that they found traces of a thermitic reaction in particles of dust found at the World Trade Center.

Griffin and Gage hold this up as mainstream validation of the movement's work, but the peer-review process of the paper is suspect. (The editor of the journal resigned over the paper after it was published without her approval, for example, and one of the paper's peer reviewers is a 9/11 conspiracist who has speculated that the passengers on the four flights are actually still alive and living off of Swiss bank accounts.) "Since they can't attack the science, they attack the peer-review process," Gage responds. "Let's have them attack the science." The science has been addressed by Popular Mechanics and others.

At a certain point, though, debating science and theory and ideas is an exercise in futility, because the hypotheses of conspiracy theorists are not grounded in any kind of a larger understanding of the real world. "This sounds really mean," says Erik Sofge, a reporter on the original Popular Mechanics piece and an occasional contributor to Slate. "But really, it's like arguing over the marching speed of hobbits."

Again, not trying to convince you or anyone else of anything because that's patently impossible on the internet and I largely don't care what anyone thinks on the issue. Not that I'm a nihilist, I just decided to turn the page and live life differently.
 
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Watching the Speech. Dooooooooooooom!!!


And as I was posting this image, I got this alert....
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Too funny!
 
All I want to say is that this pretty much sums up the method and motivation of every conspiracy theorist I have encountered.

Darren, which "conspiracy theorist" were you referring to? . The President of the United States? . The Dallas Police Chief riding in the car ahead of JFK? . Or were you referring to the Commissioners themselves who didn't believe their own Official Report? You forgot to specify.

I really wasn't trying to lay a trap for you guys, but it seems that you laid a trap for yourselves and then stumbled into it all by yourselves .. You see, the post time stamps show that you posted your sarcastic reply within minutes of my very lengthy post, and before I had finished editing it. . Not really time enough to read it all carefully, go through all the video testimony, then compose and post your own thoughtful response. . You posted before going through it carefully, revealing that you didn't see the video testimony and that you had already made up your mind without bothering with the facts in the videos. . Then you apparently completely missed the fact that the video testimony was of public officials who had themselves come to suspect a conspiracy. . Finally, your lighting fast thoughtless responses revealed the fact that you guys are still hanging out in this thread all day waiting to pounce. . Don't you guys have anything better to do?

Next time, you guys might want to wait a while so it isn't so obvious that you're all glued to this thread waiting to pounce. . You made it too easy. . Thanks for the gift. .





(Where are those military forum moderators when we need them?)
 
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