Unions

3enginejock said:
Unions created GoJets IMO. TSA had the chance to keep their flying and then GoJets would have never happaned. The pilot group their thought they could get a better contract by refusing, they failed and GoJets was created so the company could do what it wanted.

Airlines are in the business of making money, same as any other business. They will only pay what they have to. Lets be glad they arent paying us 10 bucks an hour because you know there will be some kid ready and willing to fly an E-190 for 10 bucks an hour if he had the chance. And that is the real problem with our industry. I do not blame the airlines one bit. We are our own worst enemy, not airline management.

If no one applied for a job at Amerijet due to the conditions. There would be lavs in the aircrat and their pilots would be getting paid a decent wage, or there would be no Amerijet. Conditions at Amerijet are not a NEW thing, my grandfather and uncle both flew out of corrosion corner in Miami back in the 70s and 80s. Trust me, what Amerijet pilots have to go through is NOTHING compared to what the conditions of low budget cargo airlines were back then.
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Your opinion is wrong in regard to Gojets.

You are correct people need to stop taking crap jobs.
 
3enginejock said:
Unions created GoJets IMO. TSA had the chance to keep their flying and then GoJets would have never happaned. The pilot group their thought they could get a better contract by refusing, they failed and GoJets was created so the company could do what it wanted.

Airlines are in the business of making money, same as any other business. They will only pay what they have to. Lets be glad they arent paying us 10 bucks an hour because you know there will be some kid ready and willing to fly an E-190 for 10 bucks an hour if he had the chance. And that is the real problem with our industry. I do not blame the airlines one bit. We are our own worst enemy, not airline management.
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re-read those two paragraphs and explain to me how you can argue for both sides of an issue in the same post? It doesnt make sense.

You say that TSA saying no created gojets, and that they should have said yes to avoid that (and hence, accept whatever the company was willing to offer).

Then right below that you say to be glad that the airlines arent offering 10/hr because some SJS kids will accept whatever the company is willing to offer to fly.
 
3enginejock said:
Unions created GoJets IMO. TSA had the chance to keep their flying and then GoJets would have never happaned. The pilot group their thought they could get a better contract by refusing, they failed and GoJets was created so the company could do what it wanted
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Not ever close.

The TSA guys said no because in their contract if they said no then it would go to arbitration.
 
Gonzo, but how did that work out for them?

Casey my point was that airlines are in the business of making money, I do not fault the owners of TSA for creating a new company to do what they want to get done. I also do not fault the pilots for not accepting the flying eather. Both parties are looking out for number one.

The main point is in that case the pilots lost. They took a risk and lost. I really dont see how blaming the pilots at GoJets is going to solve anything... They are not scabs, they are not underpaid when compared to other regionals (in fact they are paid above average wages), what is the problem?

TSA could have said yes, not taken a risk and kept their flying. GoJets would have never been created and we would have never seen any threads about GoJets.

I really believe unions are the cause of problems like this because they are the ones that advise their members of what is in their best interested and the elected representitives speak for the whole pilot group.

In the end unions are good and bad IMO. They make things fair by using seniority lists, bidding, and defending pilots when needed. They also create problems by lobbying for more when the company is losing money. Im sorry, I know we are underpaid but asking for a raise when the airline your working for is LOSING money seems a bit dumb to me.
 
Unions didn't creat GoJets. MANAGEMENT created GoJets to make an end run around the union contract. The union did what they are supposed to do: stand up for the rights of their member pilots rather than rolling over and letting management have their way.
 
3enginejock said:
The main point is in that case the pilots lost. They took a risk and lost. I really dont see how blaming the pilots at GoJets is going to solve anything... They are not scabs, they are not underpaid when compared to other regionals (in fact they are paid above average wages), what is the problem?
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What risk?
They had a contract that outlined pay for new types.

3enginejock said:
I really believe unions are the cause of problems like this because they are the ones that advise their members of what is in their best interested and the elected representitives speak for the whole pilot group.
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WTF?
Like I said that was no best interest. It was clear in the contract what needed to be done.
 
Gonzo said:
What risk?
They had a contract that outlined pay for new types.


WTF?
Like I said that was no best interest. It was clear in the contract what needed to be done.
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If it was so clear, then why is GoJets hiring and TSA furloughing? Obviously it wasnt clear enough...
 
3enginejock said:
If it was so clear, then why is GoJets hiring and TSA furloughing? Obviously it wasnt clear enough...
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Because TSA, Inc is a dirt bag company, that got lucky in the courts.
From the TSA contract: http://www.talkairline.com/pilot_contracts/alpa_trans_states_airlines_contract.pdf

B. Scope
1. All flying in and for the scheduled revenue passenger service of the Company and any wet lease or charter flying presently performed or to be performed in the future by the Company, shall be performed by active Pilots on the Trans States Airlines Pilots' Seniority List and shall be flown in accordance with all of the provisions of the Employment agreement and applicable amendments thereto between the Company and the Pilots as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (AFL-CIO).
2. Notwithstanding paragraph B.l. above, the Company may assign or contract out flying for periods not in excess of ninety (90) days if such conduct is necessary to accomplish the needs of the service of the Company, and the Company does not have sufficient aircraft or pilots available to perform the flying assigned or contracted out and no company pilot is furloughed as a result of such contracting out of such flying.
C. Successorship
1.
This agreement shall be binding upon any successor or merged company or companies unless and until changed in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended.
2. The Company shall not create or acquire an alter ego to avoid the terms and conditions of the Agreement.
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1.
The Company shall provide written notice to the Chairman of the Master Executive Council and the Association upon the acquisition or lease of new aircraft other than equipment covered by the rates of pay which are specified in this Agreement. The Association and the Company agree to meet, pursuant to Section 6, Title I, of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, irrespective of the Duration Section of this Agreement to negotiate rates of pay for such aircraft at a mutually agreed time, but not later than sixty (60) days before the aircraft is being placed into revenue service. The rates of pay agreed upon will be retroactive to the first day the aircraft is placed into revenue operation. Nothing in this Agreement shall restrict the Company’s right to acquire new aircraft or place them into service prior to such negotiations.
2.
If the parties are unable to agree upon a rate of pay by the first day the aircraft is placed into revenue service, pilots will be paid the regional airline industry average wage rate, until such time as the parties agree upon a wage rate. The regional airline industry average shall be composed of U.S. certificated air carriers in the regional airline industry operating the same or comparable aircraft and who meet all the following criteria:
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It looks clear to me.
 
If contracts were clear, there would be a lot of out of work lawyers and judges. Fact is, NO contract is clear. There's always a different "interpretation" of the rule. TSA pilots just got handed an arbitrator with a different "interpretation." Seems pretty clear to me, too. What happens is management starts creating "holding companies" and selling their airlines to themselves. Then they say "OH! That agreement was between the pilots at Airline Inc. We're Airline Corp. Even though it's the same management team and we all get paid from the same coffers, it's DIFFERENT!" Can't really prove otherwise with TSA since they aren't a publicaly traded company, therefore not under the SEC rules.
 
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