JoelT
Well-Known Member
Yep, good points all around.
Unions
- Thread starter 3enginejock
- Start date
Yep, good points all around.
3enginejock
Well-Known Member
Going back and looking at the Amerijet strike. Do you think it was a wise choice by the IBT and the pilots at Amerijet to strike when the airline industry and the economy in general is in a big slump?
I totally understand their reasoning behind the strike the conditions and pay there are atrotious. But one cant help but wonder why you would take the chance at losing your job when there are thousands of pilots on furlough.
Not to mention we have no idea how long this strike may last. While not all Amerijet planes are flying there are a few that still are.
What about the people at Amerijet that did not want to strike? Now they are being considered scabs, rightfully so but they may not have chose to strike. Perhaps they didnt even want to join the union...
I dont understand why a union can tell someone how to live. Who are they to put someone on a list if they did not even want the strike in the first place?
I am just playing devils advocate here. I would never become a scab myself and I believe it or not support the idea of unions. I just dont think the unions will should be forced upon someone if they dont want to be in the union.
I totally understand their reasoning behind the strike the conditions and pay there are atrotious. But one cant help but wonder why you would take the chance at losing your job when there are thousands of pilots on furlough.
Not to mention we have no idea how long this strike may last. While not all Amerijet planes are flying there are a few that still are.
What about the people at Amerijet that did not want to strike? Now they are being considered scabs, rightfully so but they may not have chose to strike. Perhaps they didnt even want to join the union...
I dont understand why a union can tell someone how to live. Who are they to put someone on a list if they did not even want the strike in the first place?
I am just playing devils advocate here. I would never become a scab myself and I believe it or not support the idea of unions. I just dont think the unions will should be forced upon someone if they dont want to be in the union.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I'm sure they would have loved to have struck 2 years ago, or even 3 years ago or even maybe 4 years ago. They don't control when the NMB is going to release them, and once released and they don't do anything -- that just tells Management that they're not really that serious and to stonewall even harder.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
When you come to work at a closed shop you know ahead of time that you will be a union member. If you don't like it there are exist on every floor.
casey
Well-Known Member
if you dont want to strike, you vote no when the strike vote happens and have your voice heard. However, if the majority vote strike and you choose not to, then you are crossing the line and scabbing. Likewise if you refuse to join the union, that act alone is enough to meet the definition of 'scab'.
:yeahthat: If you vote to strike, then its getting pretty bad that you wouldn't mind leaving anyway if nothing is going to change. The unions do a lot on the pilots behalf and IMO are well worth the money we spend. C'mon they even give us free (our money pays for it but oh well) meals every couple months. If the pilots strike the airline will fall, so id rather leave and take the ship with me then work my butt off for a crappy return while someone else gets the riches.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
STFD!
3enginejock
Well-Known Member
This is only a rumor I heard through the grapevine. Amerijet has over 20 scabs at the moment and a new hire class scheduled soon.
So do you think the strike will be worth it if Amerijet simply continues without the strikers and they are left without a job?
I really do understand why the are on strike, what I cannot understand is the timing... This seems to me like the very worst time to strike. Amerijet is going to find a lot of scabs simply because there are tons of pilots looking for work, some may not even know the pilots are on strike.
If they do have scabs already I hope they plan on being there for the rest of their career because it could be tough to go somewhere else after they are on "the list." Even if the Amerijet pilots never fly there again I think it will still be worth it b/c I'm willing to bet when things turn around those guys will get preferential interviews somewhere. Also, there's a lot to be said for having self-respect and not giving into "the man." It may be bad timing industry wise but it was time in their minds to do something about how they were being treated.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Rumors like that are created for the express purpose of creating Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
[yt]5iAIM02kv0g[/yt]
casey
Well-Known Member
What you need to understand is the timing is largely out of their hands. They cannot resort to self help until the NMB declares an impasse, issues a 30 day cooling off period and that period expires. At that point its do or die as far as being effective is concerned. What do you expect them to do, after years of negotiating a contract and finally given some leverage to sit on it? Good luck ever getting anything if you do that, esp when management has already walked!
Forget the economy, at some point a job just isnt worth having, and if you know its never going to get better (because management has left the table over some very basic issues and doesnt care), what incentive is there to not stand up for yourself.
A backbone isnt an always an easy thing to exercise.
juan valdez
Well-Known Member
Completely differnet industry but I have a good friend who works at one of the major oil/natural gas companies here in Houston, well actually texas city. Anyway, the hourly workers that are in a union were threatening to strike unless they got their new deal. I guess their old one just happend to run out earlier this year and a new agreement hadn't been agreed upon. So they threatened to strike and literally hours before they went on strike a new agreement was hashed out.
I asked the same question, how can they strike AND demand raises/concessions in this economy. My friend, who is not in the union and not management either, basically told me that they had no control over it. The contract for the union workers ran out when it ran out, economy bad or good. They have no control over the economy, but when it comes time to negotiate better terms for your workers, the union needs to do what it needs to do. Just because the economy is bad now doesnt mean it will be in one year, two years etc. Just because the mandated time line of when an agreement should have been hashed out falls in a time of bad economic times shouldn't be a penalty against the pilots of amerijet
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
That's part of it. The other part is that nasty piece of outdated legislation known as the RLA. Airlines are under that where as most other unions in the US are under the NLRA. The NLRA says you can more or less enter self help when the contract expires, such as the oil worker example. The RLA, however, has hoops that have to be jumped through before you can strike. Contracts under the RLA don't really "expire," they become "ammendable." If you read an article or hear someone say airline pilots are "working without a contract," I'd recommend you just stop reading or listening and go on to a more credible and informed source of info. The problem with the RLA is we have even LESS control over the timing of a strike. You can go for YEARS under a contract that is ammendable and not be allowed to strike (Pinnacle and ASA are prime examples). Then suddenly, the NMB can say "You're at an impasse. 30 days and you can go to self help." This is what happened to Amerijet.
3enginejock
Well-Known Member
Ok what about the attitude and witch hunt that union strikes bring about. As you can see in the Amerijet thread there have been numerous arguments about what is or isnt a scab. Some people calling people scabs and slimeballs simply for asking questions.
We want to be treated like professionals, but at times we seem to act more like an angry mob.
We want to be treated like professionals, but at times we seem to act more like an angry mob.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Just because people get angry on a forum doesn't mean they aren't professional at work. An angry mob mentality on a internet forum happens. Learn what you can and move on. If they act like that in a uniform, face to face, then I'd be worried.
Only caveat to that I can think of is if you actually are scabbing, then at that time, expect to get the name calling and worse.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
IMO, there's a pretty clear cut definition of a scab. If someone does flying for, interviews with or starts a training class at Amerijet while the pilots are on strike, that's a scab. Pretty clear cut, there. In GoJets case or similar cases, it's not a scab by the clearest definition, but it's not something I would personally be able to live with doing.
subpilot
Squawking 7600
People take the term "scab" to heart and don't make the mistake of calling someone a scab if they are not 100% by definition. I guess GoJet pilots would be "scum" vice "scab" since they didn't cross a picket line but they did allow a company to get around a union.
3enginejock
Well-Known Member
Unions created GoJets IMO. TSA had the chance to keep their flying and then GoJets would have never happaned. The pilot group their thought they could get a better contract by refusing, they failed and GoJets was created so the company could do what it wanted.
Airlines are in the business of making money, same as any other business. They will only pay what they have to. Lets be glad they arent paying us 10 bucks an hour because you know there will be some kid ready and willing to fly an E-190 for 10 bucks an hour if he had the chance. And that is the real problem with our industry. I do not blame the airlines one bit. We are our own worst enemy, not airline management.
If no one applied for a job at Amerijet due to the conditions. There would be lavs in the aircrat and their pilots would be getting paid a decent wage, or there would be no Amerijet. Conditions at Amerijet are not a NEW thing, my grandfather and uncle both flew out of corrosion corner in Miami back in the 70s and 80s. Trust me, what Amerijet pilots have to go through is NOTHING compared to what the conditions of low budget cargo airlines were back then.
Airlines are in the business of making money, same as any other business. They will only pay what they have to. Lets be glad they arent paying us 10 bucks an hour because you know there will be some kid ready and willing to fly an E-190 for 10 bucks an hour if he had the chance. And that is the real problem with our industry. I do not blame the airlines one bit. We are our own worst enemy, not airline management.
If no one applied for a job at Amerijet due to the conditions. There would be lavs in the aircrat and their pilots would be getting paid a decent wage, or there would be no Amerijet. Conditions at Amerijet are not a NEW thing, my grandfather and uncle both flew out of corrosion corner in Miami back in the 70s and 80s. Trust me, what Amerijet pilots have to go through is NOTHING compared to what the conditions of low budget cargo airlines were back then.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Thats BS. That's like saying rape is created by someone saying no, after all if they had said yes it wouldn't be rape. It doesn't make any sense what so ever.