Unions -- Please Answer!!!

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I'm hoping this happens at Mesa in too long. Saying it'll never happen, then wake up one morning and JO has 'em flying 737s for RJ wages b/c they didn't negotiate the wages.

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Trust me we're working on it. Changes are coming and those in charge are not making friends. As for flying a 737 for RJ wages, only the original Freedumb guys will do that. This pilot group will not settle; we've been shat upon too long.

Stormy: when I was a business major in college, I was anti-union. There really didn't appear to be a need for them, considering how "everyone" had health care, safe working conditions, retirement, blah blah blah. Yeup, I was wrong. The last 5 years have changed my mind, and now it's beyond obvious that a good union is a necessity in aviation. Have your mom hang out in the crew room with us for an hour or three; she'll change her tune.
 
Welcome to the dark side, Bog! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Personally, I wasn't too hot on unions either...

Then I got my first airline job and realized that most companies would rather pressure you to bend the regulations and as long as you don't bend metal or get audited, they're satisfied. But if you DO get audited, you're absolutely toast and they won't back you up because you violated an FAR.

Don't fly it, you're toast. Fly it, we're happy. Fly it but get caught, well you know what it says in the policies and procedure manual about federal air regulations...

"Sign me up. Now.. Today... How can I volunteer" was my answer.

Granted things improved 1000-fold since then at my previous employer, but I learned a lot of lessons about the necessary "evil" unions are.

Believe me, without the help and research of ALPA, the Roselawn ATR-72 accident would still be on the books as simply "pilot error", the problems wouldn't have been fixed and we certainly would have lost another ATR at the loss of more lives.
 
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Believe me, without the help and research of ALPA, the Roselawn ATR-72 accident would still be on the books as simply "pilot error", the problems wouldn't have been fixed and we certainly would have lost another ATR at the loss of more lives.



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Guaranteed.
 
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Believe me, without the help and research of ALPA, the Roselawn ATR-72 accident would still be on the books as simply "pilot error", the problems wouldn't have been fixed and we certainly would have lost another ATR at the loss of more lives.

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Agreed 100%. When our 1900 went down in CLT last year, ALPA had its own investigative team there. They asked the questions that the manufacturer, the company, the FAA, and the NTSB did not want asked. Money well spent.
 
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Agreed 100%. When our 1900 went down in CLT last year, ALPA had its own investigative team there. They asked the questions that the manufacturer, the company, the FAA, and the NTSB did not want asked. Money well spent.

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Bog,

If you don't mind sharing, what kind of questions were asked that others didn't want asked?
 
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If you don't mind sharing, what kind of questions were asked that others didn't want asked?

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A buddy of mine (fellow pilot) was involved in that investigation; he got sucked in because someone somewhere found out that he'd spent a little time wrenching on the 1900 in earlier days. During the investigation (he was out there hours after it happened, walking through raw wreckage and refusing to fully explain what it looked like), he tried to keep me up to speed with what he could.

Basically, the crash was not pilot error, but everyone wanted it to be so. Raytheon didn't want it to be a design flaw, Raytheon MX Services didn't want it to be mechanical error, Mesa didn't want it to be anything company related, P&W didn't want it to be blamed on the engines, etc, etc. Big business is heartless in these cases and wants nothing more than to blame the pilot because a dead pilot will not hurt business; he / she is the perfect scapegoat.

The ALPA investigation team ensured that every angle was checked, every questionable part inspected beyond the minima, every bit of earth uncovered. In the end, thanks to the ALPA team sticking up for the deceased, the pilots were cleared and the real cause determined. The corporations wanted the final ruling to be "pilot induced stall/spin." Our folks wanted the pilots' names cleared.

I would imagine the ATR investigation that Doug mentioned would have been the same. Certainly the manufacturer would not have wanted the world to hear that its plane had a design defect, so their #1 goal in the investigation would have been to find a way to blame the pilot. ALPA prevented that.
 
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Unions rock. This profession wouldn't be a fraction of what it is now without unions.

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Go ask the NJA guys about what a "wonderful" job their union has done for them recently... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Have you seen their new TA that took 3 years to negotiate? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

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A union is only as good/strong as its members make it ... don't like your (the universal you) uninon? Change it. Not rocket science! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Both unions and management are selfish greedy bastards in their own ways. Union execs don't give a rat's ass about union members getting laid off at one location, as long as they make a name from themselves. Heroic times when unions were a necessity against greedy corporation owners are long gone and unions have long lost interest in protecting the little guy. A union leader is basically a politician whose prime interest is his own.

This being said many employers and management continue to abuse their positions as well as their workers. But resorting to being represented by a unions with unrealistic demands is no guarantee of long-term employment. The union leader is paid by the union, he doesn't care if you're paid or not unless the union itself is threatened which is ralely the case in big shops.

Management, on the opposite side of the spectrum, only cares about themselves and their needs too; workers be damned. They could care less if an airline tanks (ie US Air) since they'll still be walking away with their 6 figures, while the rest of the pilots/FAs/mechs/CSAs/rampers are all out on the street.

It's like the average worker is nothing but a pawn in this sick game.
 
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Both unions and management are selfish greedy bastards in their own ways.

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MikeD, you've hit the nail on the head. If push comes to shove, and the union has to choose between the union and the workers, the workers will lose every time.

That being said, however, most airline workers are probably better off with a union than without. And if the union gets too out of line, you can always overthrow them, as the mechanics did at Northwest not too long ago (of course, the new union is INSANE).

And to give my $0.02 on the original question: never, never, never, never, NEVER, under any circumstances, cross a picket line.

MF
 
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Hey Stormy, what's the latest?

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Well, being a pilot is still inspiring for me, but I've begun to take a second look at things. Posts such as Mavmb's Enough of the glorious pilot career aren't very encouraging. Add that to this whole thing I described earlier about having to sign that agreement with my mother, and I think I'll get another job and major in whatever field that is in college. Then, hopefully I can save up some money so I don't have to be extremely poor. At that point I might as well pay for my own flight training so there is no agreement to sign.

One question, though: Would it put me at a disadvantage to wait like this and therefore not go to college for aviation? Some people say that a degree from Embry-Riddle, UND, etc. doesn't mean all that much, but they are prestigious for aviation.
 
You'll do just fine going to a normal school. Trust me, though, time to take a stand with Mom. Do it politely, but do it now, otherwise we're going to start calling you Cliffy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cwm27.gif
 
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Some people say that a degree from Embry-Riddle, UND, etc. doesn't mean all that much, but they are prestigious for aviation.

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They're only prestigious to UND and Riddle. The airlines/cargo carriers/whatever just want to see you've put in the effort to get the degree and check "yes" in that box on the application.
 
"Would it put me at a disadvantage to wait like this and therefore not go to college for aviation?"

It would not only NOT be a disadvantage....but there are some reasons a non-aviation degree is actually an advantage.
 
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