Unions and Pay

Status
Not open for further replies.
This thread:

esa17 "I work harder than everyone else so I should get paid more"

"OK, how do you work harder than everyone else?"

esa17 "I work my tail off so I should get paid more"

"Yeah we know...but how would you measure it?"

esa17 "Its intangible, but I work harder than other people so I should get paid more"

BTW...do you even work at an airline?
 
BTW...do you even work at an airline?

Look, I'm not going to even respond to your other comments. The fact is my points and opinions are just as valid as anyone elses'.

I chose the 135 route, ALL my friends who chose the 121 route aren't doing much flying these days. That alone completely validates everything I've said in my mind. I won't convince anyone of anything just like no one could convince me merit based pay is a bad thing.
 
Look, I'm not going to even respond to your other comments. The fact is my points and opinions are just as valid as anyone elses'.

I chose the 135 route, ALL my friends who chose the 121 route aren't doing much flying these days. That alone completely validates everything I've said in my mind. I won't convince anyone of anything just like no one could convince me merit based pay is a bad thing.
Well we don't load bags, order catering, or empty lavs. So maybe there is a way of measuring "hard work" in a 135 op if you're responsible for those kids of things. If you ever go 121 let me know how much harder you are able to work than the next guy though.

(but you still haven't provided even a single metric by which you would measure how hard an airline pilot works).
 
Anyway, back on topic.

How can pilots or pilot unions increase pay other than striking? I know the strike is a useful tool. However, I think the public already has a poor perception of pilots.

Other than pay increases to keep up with inflation does anyone think it is possible to regain some of the money given up in an attempt to keep airlines afloat after 9/11 or any other concessions?
 
I chose the 135 route, ALL my friends who chose the 121 route aren't doing much flying these days. That alone completely validates everything I've said in my mind. I won't convince anyone of anything just like no one could convince me merit based pay is a bad thing.

And now we find the crux of your problem. You are just pissed that other pilots made a better career decision than you. I'm sorry that you chose a career path that makes you work more than us in the airlines. You had the same opportunity we all did. I wanted to for an airline because the absolute least thing I wanted to do was fly 135 or 91. And, believe me, as a former check airman, all transport category pilots fly exactly the same.
 
CC:

Can you define "better career decision..."?

As a 135 guy, I can't say that 121 really interests me. Ideally, I'd like to fly 91. I guess, according to you, that's a poor career decision. Can you explain?

-mini
 
Subjectivity. . .and Vested Interest.

Those who don't have a vested interest in the success of the airline industry, really don't have much ground to stand on when discussing union politics, initiatives, or anything mildly related to the airline piloting profession.

Subjectivity. . .adjectives such as better, especially when used to describe another pilot is really laughable. I'm sure each of us would love to run our own mental imagination of the FAA, our own flight school, and our own 135 or 121 training department so we could put every pilot through our own imaginary world of training standards and proficiency standards.

Trouble is. . .it won't happen, so get over it. Big deal - you think you're a better pilot than someone else, who gives a ####.

Fighting trivial battles as to who is a better pilot in a highly standardized world of 121 or 135 is really laughable, but if some of you insist on fighting it...go right on ahead, but you're going to part of a very lonely bunch.

What can be fought, and is evaluated on a regular basis is if Pilot A can fly to Company XYZ's standards. If so, great, to the line you go. If not, sorry, to the door you go. . .It's really not difficult, but obviously those who lack the personal life experience of going through such a training program will feel this perpetual nagging feeling of trying to equate themselves as the better pilot when compared to another professional pilot. . .

I'd rather drink a beer, know my craft, and know that I can fly standard. Rather then insist on a pissing match and saying I'm better than some other pilot.

So in the end - once again - who gives a ####. People who are on a mental kick to make sure they place themselves #1 amongst their peers, essentially people who were ignored or neglected as children perhaps? I don't know. . .but I don't care, and I need a beer.
 
I think all pilots who would like to fly pt 121 have a vested interest in the future of the airline industry. Other than that, I agree with everything said above.
 
You are just pissed that other pilots made a better career decision than you. I'm sorry that you chose a career path that makes you work more than us in the airlines.


I wouldn't say "better", maybe "different" would be a better choice. I also fly 135/91 and I have no desire to EVER fly for an airline (union or not)! I may work harder than you in the respect of loading bags, stocking the airplane, filing my own flight plans, and of course the dreaded lav, but it is often rewarded by nights in really nice hotels in locations other people would love to visit. I will be glad to empty the lav today knowing I will be sitting on the beach or in the mountains for the next two days living on the company money. I would very seldom call flying a plane "work". But like you said, you made your choice for a "different" lifestyle.

I would probably call myself an anti-union person. I can see where the unions were neccesary in the early stages of industrialization in America, but they served their purpose and have helped to develop federal work rules and standards, and I no longer feel a need for them nor have I heard many people brag about their union dues doing much beneficial for them, except for the folks at Ford who get union breaks every hour while they are being paid a ridiculous amount of money to drink coffee. That is just my $0.02.

That being said, I disagree with esa, I don't think there is any way for a reward (such as pay increase/upgrade/vacation/etc...) based on merit for a pilot. You can not use performance because there are too many variables out of the pilot's control such as weather, maintenance, ATC delays, waiting line for de-icing, in the airline world - time spent loading/inloading the plane (pax and cargo), in charter - pax/cargo even showing up on time, and so on. I agree that we have all flown with people that we don't know how they got in the seat, but until they screw up and crash or get busted violating some FAR, there is no way to put on paper why you are a better pilot than they are.
 
And now we find the crux of your problem. You are just pissed that other pilots made a better career decision than you. I'm sorry that you chose a career path that makes you work more than us in the airlines. You had the same opportunity we all did. I wanted to for an airline because the absolute least thing I wanted to do was fly 135 or 91. And, believe me, as a former check airman, all transport category pilots fly exactly the same.
You're sadly misguided....I have a job most guys would swim through a river of crap to get and I LOVE IT. I work less, fly more, and EARN more than the guys that fly 121 for years....Plus...I'm in no danger of being furloughed. All those guys at Comair, Republic, and Mesa made such better decisions than me they're not flying any more. I'm sorry the industry is in the shape it is, I'm sorry my comments offend some of you, but I'm not sorry I'm not wrong. Everyone on here complains about how bad the regionals are and how we should avoid them....So I did and I'm better off for it.
 
Well we don't load bags, order catering, or empty lavs. So maybe there is a way of measuring "hard work" in a 135 op if you're responsible for those kids of things. If you ever go 121 let me know how much harder you are able to work than the next guy though.

(but you still haven't provided even a single metric by which you would measure how hard an airline pilot works).
Neither do I, we have line staff for that.

And yes, I did. But to that end, I'm not going to pollute this thread any more. Unstoppable force meet immovable object.
 
I wouldn't say "better", maybe "different" would be a better choice. I also fly 135/91 and I have no desire to EVER fly for an airline (union or not)! I may work harder than you in the respect of loading bags, stocking the airplane, filing my own flight plans, and of course the dreaded lav, but it is often rewarded by nights in really nice hotels in locations other people would love to visit. I will be glad to empty the lav today knowing I will be sitting on the beach or in the mountains for the next two days living on the company money. I would very seldom call flying a plane "work". But like you said, you made your choice for a "different" lifestyle.

I would probably call myself an anti-union person. I can see where the unions were neccesary in the early stages of industrialization in America, but they served their purpose and have helped to develop federal work rules and standards, and I no longer feel a need for them nor have I heard many people brag about their union dues doing much beneficial for them, except for the folks at Ford who get union breaks every hour while they are being paid a ridiculous amount of money to drink coffee. That is just my $0.02.

That being said, I disagree with esa, I don't think there is any way for a reward (such as pay increase/upgrade/vacation/etc...) based on merit for a pilot. You can not use performance because there are too many variables out of the pilot's control such as weather, maintenance, ATC delays, waiting line for de-icing, in the airline world - time spent loading/inloading the plane (pax and cargo), in charter - pax/cargo even showing up on time, and so on. I agree that we have all flown with people that we don't know how they got in the seat, but until they screw up and crash or get busted violating some FAR, there is no way to put on paper why you are a better pilot than they are.
Best post in this thread.

...I'm in no danger of being furloughed.
Famous last words ...

-mini
 
CC:

Can you define "better career decision..."?

As a 135 guy, I can't say that 121 really interests me. Ideally, I'd like to fly 91. I guess, according to you, that's a poor career decision. Can you explain?

-mini

The guy said that his airline friends don't work as hard as he has to (less days or less hours apparently) thereby justifying his position that he is a better pilot and should be paid more. That sounds more like a personal problem on his part that actually has nothing to do with his buddies.

Is flying 135 a bad decision in general? No. But, if he wanted the same lifestyle as his friends, then he should have made the same decisions.

If he (or you) don't want the airline lifestyle, that's fine. More power to you. But, saying that an airline guy is less of a pilot is comical.
 
You should get out of the regionals as quickly as possible. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

With that said, it is a lot easier said than done.

I agree with you in principle...but really leaving the regionals for something else is quite a gamble. Just ask all the furloughees from the majors right now. Things were lookin awesome just a year ago...now they can't even go back to the regional they just came from.

Again, I agree in principle, but do your research, hope for the best, have a backup, and most of all...keep those fingers crossed.
 
I would probably call myself an anti-union person. I can see where the unions were neccesary in the early stages of industrialization in America, but they served their purpose and have helped to develop federal work rules and standards, and I no longer feel a need for them nor have I heard many people brag about their union dues doing much beneficial for them, except for the folks at Ford who get union breaks every hour while they are being paid a ridiculous amount of money to drink coffee. That is just my $0.02.

Dude, you have absolutely no clue and I am leaving it at that. I like being able to control my own destiny thank you very much. I guess you are all for the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.
 
But, saying that an airline guy is less of a pilot is comical.
Sorry if you thought I was implying anything.

Merely trying to figure out what you meant by "poor decision" when you were referencing 135 and 91. They're different ... doesn't make one better nor a lesser pilot, IMO.

-mini
 
Another point on using anything besides a seniority based system is that you open the door for favoritism to show its ugly face.

"You're only a captain because the you get the chief pilot his coffee every morning!"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top