Union vs non-Union question...

PGT said:
Would is still be wrong to fly for airline A since they are non-union even though they are much better than airlines B, C, and D?
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Wrong? Not really. Smart? Probably not.

There's nothing like having some protection over your ability to provide for yourself and your family. At a non-union carrier, you are an at-will employee. If management suddenly changes, then your good airline with nice labor relations could suddenly become the lowest of the low. Management could start unfairly punishing employees left and right to "show them who's boss." A union provides protection against this.
 
surreal1221 said:
Ditch the blue collar BS, we (uh oh) are not blue collar employees. . .the end.
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You make an hourly wage and work under conditions negotiated collectively through a bargaining agent. You're a blue-collar employee whether you like it or not. I don't know why pilots have such a hard time accepting this.
 
I'm not really a pro-union guy but I understand 99% of airlines are union so I'll live with it. And I'm not going to go out of my way to work at Skywest or someone just cause they are non-union. I think we know both union and non-union companies can be both good and bad places to work for, it still comes down the management, employees and business practices, you need all three to be good to make a good company, weather you need a union or not I'm not sure.
 
PCL_128 said:
You make an hourly wage and work under conditions negotiated collectively through a bargaining agent. You're a blue-collar employee whether you like it or not. I don't know why pilots have such a hard time accepting this.
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It may be because it's an opinion, and not a stated FACT.

Call it blue collar if you want, but by doing so you're not in a position to better the profession. Especially when you project the image that as a blue collar worker you are lower in the social ladder.

White collar projects an image that you are actually WORTH what you are fighting for.

Perception means a lot, especially at the negotiating table.

While we are in a skilled trade, it is not a skilled trade that sees HS drop outs coming and performing at the level many of us plan/are working at. It is also not a skilled trade in the classic sense of the phrase, we do not run assembly lines, we do not put things together. . .we do not take care of pipes in houses, we do not put houses together. . .we fly planes. Up front, we stay clean (for the most part).

It's white collar in my book, but like I said. . .it's all a matter of opinion, but I will always vision and treat the profession as a white collar profession.

As far as the hourly wage bit, yes. . .we do. . .because that's part of the nature of the profession. But is that grounds for defining the profession as blue collar? Hell no in my book.
 
I think the idea of White Collar vs. Blue Collar is a little bit like the Middle Class. Most people want to be seen as being in the middle class, whether they are below or above it.

I definitely do not see aviation as a blue collar profession. It is a highly skilled, technical profession that involves much more than pulling levers. The quality of our commercial pilots today is not in their strength but in their brains and thought processing.

People can see it (as blue collar) that way if they want, I don't think it's true. I've seen manual labor, it's a whole different ballgame. To be fair, I am not really in the aviation profession yet, so my opinion doesn't hold much of any water. Maybe it doesn't fit into blue collar or white collar? Do we even need these idioms?

As for the original question. Is it wrong? No way. Smart? Hard to say.. Things might work out great for awhile, but you are entirely at the whim of your employer. A classical 'benevolent dictator' approach. You have no protection.

I work for a company (non-aviation) that is non-union, and will never unionize in the near future. There is nothing a union can offer that the company does not already offer, other than a loss of union dues. It is really a company to company basis.
 
DE727UPS said:
"Would it hurt my career to work for a non-union airline like Skywest?"

No, certainly not. But don't expect them to stay non-union for long...
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I agree that it won't hurt. And not just because I work here at SkyWest, but because we are a standup company and good folks. We are trying (a lot of us) damn hard to unionize and keep our current and future management honest.

It is the future management part that I am most concerned with. Jerry has done a great job, but what will come next is anyones guess!
 
I once heard someone say that "Every airline that has a union did something at some point in time to deserve it." Look at Colgan. If PCL hadn't bought them and started their usual management tricks, there wouldn't be a union drive over there. Look at Skywest. All pilots are created equal over there.....unless you fly the Brasilia, and then you don't deserve a raise. One of the most successful carriers in US aviation happens to be the most unionized as well.
 
kellwolf said:
One of the most successful carriers in US aviation happens to be the most unionized as well.
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Yeah, that's what cracks me up about all the talk about how unions destroy companies. Oh yeah? Well then tell me why SWA has been profitable for something like 30 years in a row and they're the most heavily unionized airline out there.
 
Chris_Ford said:
I usually just ask them what color their uniform shirt is :)
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Ok. . . so since we're white collar, lets act white collar. . .

How many unions are there for doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, etc.? How is it that these professionals are able to negotiate their own salaries, perks, QOL, work schedules, grievances, etc. etc. on their own (note: without a union)?

I think their negotiation strategy (no unions) may be better than pilots' tactics (with unions). . . I don't hear the doctors and lawyers, bitching about how little they earn, how lousy the working conditions are, how bad the QOL, how inconvenient the hours, etc. I'd say they're doing pretty well (note: no unions).

The main pro-union argument, repeated incessantly in this forum, is pretty much that without unions, management will screw the pilots. Well, guess what. . . it seems pilots got screwed anyway.

While the pilots were getting screwed (with unions "protecting their interests"), what has happened to the accountants, and stockbrokers? Management has bid up their wages in a "war for talent". Management is doing all they can to attract and retain good people. Why isn't it like that in the airlines?

What are the costs vs. benefits of the unions?

Cost of unions: 2% of everyone's pay
Unions' major "achievement" in the past 10 years: Slowing down the restructuring of the industry.

I haven't seen any really convincing arguments from the many pro-union voices on this thread. Come on guys, give us some convincing reason to believe.
 
cre8flyer said:
Ok. . . so since we're white collar, lets act white collar. . .

I don't hear the doctors and lawyers, bitching about how little they earn, how lousy the working conditions are, how bad the QOL, how inconvenient the hours, etc.
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White collar we are. We are a large skilled labor force, but I don't by the blue collar bit. I come from a blue collar family, everyone in my family including myself has or does work in the construction industry. That is blue collar (although not in a derogatory sense).

Do you know any doctors, lawyers or accountants personally? They bitch and moan just like the lot of us.

I would answer more from your post - it was a good one with good questions - but my head is full for the evening and I am tired :)

The short of it? I was a fence rider forever, but having a single voice when we have become a commodity is a necessity these days.
 
skydog said:
There is no right or wrong here. The only reason carriers such as GoJets, Freedom, and Skybus are "wrong" is because ALPA has been very successful in seizing the moral high ground and painting those three carriers as evil, union busting, scabbrous, or whatever term you care to use. A non-union carrier has a much right to exist and prosper as a union carrier. Likewise, as a pilot, you have the right to work for whomever you please, under whatever conditions you can set or agree to.
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You're confusing issues here. On the one issue is scab or alter ego airlines. The other issue is non union airlines overall.

ALPA's position has been non union is ok, but they want to unionize them. *HOWEVER* any company that has engaged in anti union activities or otherwise gotten pilots to come on board to get by an agreement is NOT ok. That's why GoJet is a problem, they bypassed a bargaining agreement.

That is why Skywest may be courted and ex skywest pilots can get jobs at union airlines. However, GoJet pilots might find a problem, or at least face harrassment.
That said, it has been my experience that pilots, in general, view anything that threatens to alter their status quo, as "evil" or "wrong." Understand that if you accept an employment situation that they consider to be a threat to their way of life, then you will be labeled a scab, a backstabber, a pariah, and treated as such.

To me, the only "wrong" here is intelligent, educated adults turning into thugs and acting like playground bullies whenever someone comes along who happens to disagree with them.
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So someone who crosses the picket line should be praised? I don't think so. You call out those lables, but that's what those people are!


It's not about belonging to a non union airline. It's that some airlines are specifically hiring you to hurt other pilots. You can belong to a non union airline and still be ok.

BTW, GoJet is a union airline AFAIK... Teamsters. I personally don't ever want to work for a Teamsters airline now. Not for a union that would represent a pilot group that took a job knowing it was stabbing fellow pilots in the back (and yes, bypassing a union agreement is exactly that).
 
"Unions' major "achievement" in the past 10 years: Slowing down the restructuring of the industry"

What the heck does that mean?

Restructuring of the industry means RJ's flying what used to be Legacy routes for one third of the pay. Do you think that's a good thing? Huh?

People got into this biz cause they thought, if they paid their dues, they could make six figures for workin' two weeks out of the month. That's how it used to be before the "restructuring of the industry". Currently...well....it is what it is. Good luck with it.

I've been in this biz for 20 years and I'd not say things would be better if the unions "would just allow the restructuring to happen".

Personally, I'm at the peak of the profession and will be for the next ten years. I owe where I'm at TOTALLY to my union and the sacrifices my pilot group has endured to attain the goals we have reached. I'm not braggin'....CF is right about one thing, I'm here purely by luck (I'd call it divine intervention), but at least I AM here, and the fact is, if it wasn't for the high standards that have been the tradition set by union pilots over the last friggen 40 years, of whatever, they would have us all working for van driver wages and taxi driver work rules.

You people are the key to the future. I've got mine and could walk away tomorrow and not give a rip. But if you want what I got, you're gonna have to develop a better attitude about this biz than "unions are holding back the restructuring of the industry".

Knowing that comes from a low time ATP guy, I fear for the future....
 
DE727UPS said:
"Unions' major "achievement" in the past 10 years: Slowing down the restructuring of the industry"

What the heck does that mean?

Restructuring of the industry means RJ's flying what used to be Legacy routes for one third of the pay. Do you think that's a good thing? Huh?
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I'm not saying it is good and I'm not saying it is bad. I'm saying that your beloved union had no impact except to slow the process down. I can't figure out why you think they're so great.


DE727UPS said:
Knowing that comes from a low time ATP guy, I fear for the future....
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I agree on the low time thing, which is why I'm asking questions. However, the responses I'm receiving are emotional appeals and insults, which are not very convincing.
 
bike21 said:
Do you know any doctors, lawyers or accountants personally? They bitch and moan just like the lot of us.
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As a matter of fact, I do. . . I was an accountant before I became a pilot. I earned a LOT more and you're right, accountants bitch too. But it is not the same. There is a bitterness among pilots that is negative energy that affects every interaction with management, weakening our position.
 
cre8flyer, you cite Doctors as having it so good without unions, but are you aware that several groups of Doctors over the last several years have considered unionizing? A group of Doctors in West Virginia actually went on "strike" for a few weeks in 2003 to protest their ridiculous malpractice insurance premiums. A group of doctors in Pennsylvania almost did the same the year earlier. The pay and QOL of Doctors and surgeons have been declining for years. They won't talk about it in a professional environment just as most pilots won't stand in the terminal and complain to their passengers, but in private, most Doctors will tell you that they are furious at how insurance companies are destroying their profession.

Every generation of pilots that comes along thinks that they can do without unions. They say that "we're white-collar professionals, we don't need someone negotiating for us." Then along comes a man like Frank Lorenzo to make it clear that unions are an absolute necessity in this business. Do you think that Doug Steenland (NWA's CEO) would pay pilots even at their reduced concessionary wages if he weren't forced to negotiate with a union? If he had free reign to modify his pilots' pay and working conditions, then his pilots would be working for half their current pay and for the maximum number of hours allowed by FARs.

Besides that, simply look at career protections. This is a profession where the slightest mistake can lead to the end of your career. Without a union, who will protect you if you slide off of an icy runway in the middle of the night? With ALPA, lawyers and accident investigators are only a phone call away. They'll tell you what can be said to the FAA, the NTSB, the company, etc... They'll conduct an investigation of their own and submit a report to the NTSB that will be taken into account when the probable cause is determined. Without ALPA, the company could simply decide that you're a liability and more trouble than you're worth.

Many pilots start this career thinking that unions aren't necessary and have "outlived their usefulness." Virtually every one of those pilots quickly realizes how wrong they were. I suggest that you pick up a copy of "Flying the Line, Vols 1 & 2." You'll learn quite a bit about why unions came to be in this business, and why they continue to be a necessity.
 
DE727UPS said:
CF is right
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hellfrozeover.png
 
PCL_128, after reading your last post I think you might have misunderstood my comment concerning the profession being blue or white collar. Allow me to clarify.

The profession is a white collar profession. But, simply because it is a white collar profession that does not mean that we must release our ability to use a collective bargaining process.

Just wanted to set that straight, incase you were thinking that since I said we are white collar we should also release our ability to collectively bargain - which is not what I was saying.
 
surreal1221 said:
The profession is a white collar profession. But, simply because it is a white collar profession that does not mean that we must release our ability to use a collective bargaining process.

Just wanted to set that straight, incase you were thinking that since I said we are white collar we should also release our ability to collectively bargain - which is not what I was saying.
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I understand what you're saying. I guess the difference of opinion is merely that I don't view myself as being any better than the guy who works at the UAW plant. I may have more training and responsibility, but I'm still just a guy that works for a living. I think we do more harm than good for the labor movement when we try to separate ourselves. ALPA's founder, Captain [SIZE=-1]Behncke, understood this and allied the Association with the AFL. Rather than trying to separate ourselves from the rest of labor, we should be working together. The same politicians that work against the UAW worker also work against you and I.
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Looks like you put the wrong username into that quote. :)

But yes, I agree. We, as labor - as a whole, need to work together. I'll also agree that it doesn't help labor as a whole by seperating us into blue vs. white collar. But, within my own circle of discussions - airline aviators fit into the white collar mold moreso than the blue collar mold. Not that I would rub that into the face of a UAW individual though.
 
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