Union Responsibility

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Good luck moving on from said regional without a college degree.

I don't disagree. People know what they are getting into....but NOBODY ever said "golly gee I sure would like to work for XXX regional for the rest of my life", but poo happens and people get stuck there, lot of 8 yr FO's still running around.

I flew with plenty of those kinda guys some even in their 30s. Most of those saying that kinda thing were 45+ and not interested in starting over at a legacy airline to only spend 5-10 yrs before retirement. But there were a few younger ones who were making nearly 100k, holding all weekends off, and enjoying great QOL that they did not want to leave.

 

[derg]

What I would like to see is ALPA take a stand and let us know either way their view of the regional airline system. Does ALPA believe in the regional model? Does ALPA believe both should exist? If so, to what scope extent? I don't think there can be any improvement or direction until this question is answered.

There is nobody other than ALPA who can realistically attempt to lay out this vision. Even if the vision is not attainable, it gives the pilots something to align themselves with.

For example, let's say ALPA says yes we think it should exist. Then should it be an up and out type of regional airline or should a pilot expect to make a career at the airline?

If it's an up and out airline, then the payscales should be completely flattened. Only longevity pays more. If it's a place to make a career, then FO's suffer at the expense of senior captains. It's all laid out really nice right here. http://www.airlinepilotinfo.com/fixing-pilot-pay-at-regional-airlines/

It's a competitive market. ALPA, in my opinion, would only be making a speech and, at the end of it, nothing is going to change.

ALPA, on a national level, doesn't negotiate contracts. The people on the seniority list at the specific carriers do, in a very general, simplified explanation. Almost like saying, "Hey! Fresno Police suck! There has been trash my kids left in our front yard for weeks! We need to make litter more illegal and they'd better come do something!"

 

[The Juice]

Good luck moving on from said regional without a college degree.

I don't disagree. People know what they are getting into....but NOBODY ever said "golly gee I sure would like to work for XXX regional for the rest of my life", but poo happens and people get stuck there, lot of 8 yr FO's still running around.

Well in life, crap happens when you are making plans. Of course nobody signs up for a regional for life when they get in this career, but one should also know that there are only so many left seats in 777s available in this industry too. Some of us will not fly them, its numbers.

 

[wheelsup]

Well in life, crap happens when you are making plans. Of course nobody signs up for a regional for life when they get in this career, but one should also know that there are only so many left seats in 777s available in this industry too. Some of us will not fly them, its numbers.

Exactly. No matter how good you are, there are only a certain amount of seats available.

US Airways had a pretty telling figure as far as interviewing goes. They randomly selected people who met basic requirements (ATP, etc) that most regional F/Os and CAs met. They hired around 50% of those who interviewed on average. I've heard as low as 1/3, but that was one specific month.

That tells me that half the people applying to most major jobs are simply not hirable at that level, for whatever reason. Not only that, but the Airways interview had to be, by far, the easiest major interview out there. No suit, no professional prep needed. Just your uniform and some stories about your past. They even sent you a packet on how to prepare for it!

That being said, for every slot open, there are probably 10 guys who could do the job. It's still pretty competitive, no matter how competitive you are.

It's been said by current line guys at the legacies that they wouldn't have stood a chance of getting an interview if the environment was like it is today. I definitely agree with that.

 

[The Juice]

Exactly. No matter how good you are, there are only a certain amount of seats available.

US Airways had a pretty telling figure as far as interviewing goes. They randomly selected people who met basic requirements (ATP, etc) that most regional F/Os and CAs met. They hired around 50% of those who interviewed on average. I've heard as low as 1/3, but that was one specific month.

That tells me that half the people applying to most major jobs are simply not hirable at that level, for whatever reason. Not only that, but the Airways interview had to be, by far, the easiest major interview out there. No suit, no professional prep needed. Just your uniform and some stories about your past. They even sent you a packet on how to prepare for it!

That being said, for every slot open, there are probably 10 guys who could do the job. It's still pretty competitive, no matter how competitive you are.

It's been said by current line guys at the legacies that they wouldn't have stood a chance of getting an interview if the environment was like it is today. I definitely agree with that.

Take it from me, I'm someone who interviewed with Airways and didn't make the list. Luckily I was hired by Spirit 6 months later.

 

[wheelsup]

Take it from me, I'm someone who interviewed with Airways and didn't make the list. Luckily I was hired by Spirit 6 months later.

Glad you punched out. Do you know what you screwed up by chance? I don't know anyone personally who did not get hired there out of 11, 12 including myself.

How was the Spirit interview compared to Airways?

 

[The Juice]

Glad you punched out. Do you know what you screwed up by chance? I don't know anyone personally who did not get hired there out of 11, 12 including myself.

How was the Spirit interview compared to Airways?

Both were laid back, really laid back. I did some time flying overseas and the Airways lady seemed to get the wrong impression about it. Did interview prep with Emerald Coast and everything. Never got any true feedback, of course, just my hunch. In the end, it worked out. Im happy here at Spirit and life is going pretty damn well. About all we can hope for in this career.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The regional airline FO pay rate actually isn't bad if they pay by duty hour instead of flight hr. I know when I interned with Cape Air that they paid by the duty hour. Why don't most regionals do this instead? I feel that if you show up to the airport ready to work you should be compensated.

 

[wheelsup]

Both were laid back, really laid back. I did some time flying overseas and the Airways lady seemed to get the wrong impression about it. Did interview prep with Emerald Coast and everything. Never got any true feedback, of course, just my hunch. In the end, it worked out. Im happy here at Spirit and life is going pretty damn well. About all we can hope for in this career.

I hear your QOL is really high. Lots of good things about Spirit. The airline will grow and take a good chunk of market share from the legacies in the coming years IMO. People want price and they definitely deliver on that front.

 

[kellwolf]

That 5 year duration would still have been better than serving under a 1999 CBA until Feb 2011. And why do you think 9E had the ability to pay out what XJT/Skywest/ASA were making? Once the ATL 16 -900s came, there was no growth coming to 9E. It was at that point a stagnant business model. The ball was never in the union's court. In fact, PT and the gang knew they were dealing with amateurs when it came to negotiations. The company had them exactly where they wanted.

You and I must have been at different airlines. Then again, the DTW crew room always saw reality in a different manner than everyone else.

Arguably, the first and second year pay would only have been a very temporary fix, enough so that the rest of the contract could still be negotiated without losing too much bargaining power. And frankly, you hit the upgrade at the 2 year (or less) mark so FO wages didn't make a difference to you beyond 1st/2nd year pay.

Again, you're incorrect. I was already on THIRD year pay before they jacked up my first CA paycheck. I did not upgrade at less than 2 years.

And you're going to say I'm repeating this for the umtieth time, my biggest issue wasn't even them turning down the first/second year pay raises. At least I understand why they did. As you mentioned, negotiating bargaining chip. My biggest issue (a slap in the face to every FO at the time) was the bonus distribution method. When you tie that to W2s, considering what had happened to FO wages - even though not the union fault that the economy tanked - they still should have known that would not have sit well with pretty much every FO on property. Add in a couple CAs who thought TA#1 just sucked, and it was shot down. Unfortunately, voting down TA#1 was the only way to oppose the union's distribution method of the bonus money. To be fair, the company only said here's the 10 million check, ya'll do what you please with it.

I can't disagree with you on the bonus method. Hell, I was a CA at the time, but since I'd been an FO most of the time before TA1, I was getting screwed. But, that's not what you were complaining about. This is the FIRST TIME in this thread you've mentioned the bonus method. You've mentioned the union not getting your raise several times. We can't read your mind, and playing the "No no! That's not what I meant" card is getting old.

But that's all water under the bridge at this point. I think we can agree we are both better off now. Now lets get this merger done so we can start beotching again

No. I don't want a merger with VA. Good luck with the coming IPO, though. It's been a long time in coming, and maybe the initial investors will finally get off your backs, take their money and go away.

 

[kellwolf]

The regional airline FO pay rate actually isn't bad if they pay by duty hour instead of flight hr. I know when I interned with Cape Air that they paid by the duty hour. Why don't most regionals do this instead? I feel that if you show up to the airport ready to work you should be compensated.

Because that would be a raise, and management doesn't want that. They'd rather let you sit in JFK or LGA for 2 hours between flights for free.

Honest answer, paying that way would mean you have to either pay the same amount of people more or hire more people for the same number of flights. Making the schedules more efficient (which is what the purpose should be) is nigh impossible at the regional level since they don't control the scheduling of flights.

 

[MOGuy424]

The regional airline FO pay rate actually isn't bad if they pay by duty hour instead of flight hr. I know when I interned with Cape Air that they paid by the duty hour. Why don't most regionals do this instead? I feel that if you show up to the airport ready to work you should be compensated.

Haha man that would be the dream. IMHO every minute you are not at the hotel you should be getting paid, commuter, regional, major....but thats a pipe dream. Oh well maybe if this place folds up Ill go to Cape Air and do some Island hopping.

 

[MOGuy424]

Well in life, crap happens when you are making plans. Of course nobody signs up for a regional for life when they get in this career, but one should also know that there are only so many left seats in 777s available in this industry too. Some of us will not fly them, its numbers.

Precisely why those dodo's who think concessions is a good idea should be shot because who knows if you are going to get stuck at a regional (myself included) for the next XXX years. The pay needs to be adjusted in case something like the last ten years repeats itself (what have we learned? Oh ye HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF). It is so sad. I know guys who are dying to come to the airlines...but most have been flying some sort of charter/small cargo. They have goals of being at some major but most of them won't make a jump bc they are already making 40-50k and can't afford to go to making 22k a year. And that is a serious flaw with this industry.

buuuuut again we are on that merrygoround of pilots will do anything just to fly a shiny piece of metal. ugh okay i just made myself sick...is it 5'oclock yet?

 

[Phil Schuyler]

The regional airline FO pay rate actually isn't bad if they pay by duty hour instead of flight hr. I know when I interned with Cape Air that they paid by the duty hour. Why don't most regionals do this instead? I feel that if you show up to the airport ready to work you should be compensated.

Pilots are paid by the flight hour because that is the paradigm that has evolved in the airline industry. What the original progenitor of that was, I couldn't say. I've also heard of pilots being paid by the mile, or by the day.

But let's cut to the the real question. What you're really asking is, "why don't regional airlines pay their pilots more?" There are two reasons. The first is they don't have to. Historically airlines have not had a problem staffing pilot positions at whatever wages they were offering. That seems to be changing somewhat so there may be some upward movement in the pay scales, but my guess is it won't be a dramatic move.

This is because of the second reason. They can't afford it. Most regional airlines operated on what's known as a Fee For Departure business model, wherein the regional is paid a fixed amount of money to operate a flight between A and B on behalf of its major partner. It falls to the regional to make a profit at that fee. Whereas major airlines compete to sell seats to passengers, regional airlines compete to sell flights to the majors. To retain its partnership with the major airline, the regional has to be able to underbid its competitor. Cost increases (including employee wages) make it more difficult to be the lowest bidder. It's all about economics.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

No. I don't want a merger with VA.

JetBlue was suppose to be the original Virgin back in the day before New Co. Today they have similar fleet (different engine), strong east coast presence vs west coast presence, and jetBlue would gain the only other LCC transcon airline. If I had to guess, I would think jetBlue/Virgin and Spirit/Frontier both within the next 10 years.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Pilots are paid by the flight hour because that is the paradigm that has evolved in the airline industry. What the original progenitor of that was, I couldn't say. I've also heard of pilots being paid by the mile, or by the day.

But let's cut to the the real question. What you're really asking is, "why don't regional airlines pay their pilots more?" There are two reasons. The first is they don't have to. Historically airlines have not had a problem staffing pilot positions at whatever wages they were offering. That seems to be changing somewhat so there may be some upward movement in the pay scales, but my guess is it won't be a dramatic move.

This is because of the second reason. They can't afford it. Most regional airlines operated on what's known as a Fee For Departure business model, wherein the regional is paid a fixed amount of money to operate a flight between A and B on behalf of its major partner. It falls to the regional to make a profit at that fee. Whereas major airlines compete to sell seats to passengers, regional airlines compete to sell flights to the majors. To retain its partnership with the major airline, the regional has to be able to underbid its competitor. Cost increases (including employee wages) make it more difficult to be the lowest bidder. It's all about economics.

Yeah I am starting to learn how regional airlines really operate. Do you know why regionals have to have a partnership with the majors? Why don't they just operate under their own name? Instead of United Express and Delta Connection.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

JetBlue was suppose to be the original Virgin back in the day before New Co. Today they have similar fleet (different engine), strong east coast presence vs west coast presence, and jetBlue would gain the only other LCC transcon airline. If I had to guess, I would think jetBlue/Virgin and Spirit/Frontier both within the next 10 years.

Regardless of potential similarities, doesn't mean we want it.

 

[falconvalley]

Yeah I am starting to learn how regional airlines really operate. Do you know why regionals have to have a partnership with the majors? Why don't they just operate under their own name? Instead of United Express and Delta Connection.

Because they are paying the Regional to take their passengers from point a to point b. Many passengers don't have a clue that they are not actually on a United-operated plane.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Regardless of potential similarities, doesn't mean we want it.

I didn't want a XJ/9L either. Mergers happen regardless of what pilots want. If Wall Street/investors want it, and there is money to be scored, then a merger can happen.

Curious @kellwolf @cencal83406 at the reasons for a 'no'? Do you not think that to better compete with just 3 mega legacies, the LCCs (JetBlue, Virgin, Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant) may need to consolidate?

 

[BobDDuck]

Yeah I am starting to learn how regional airlines really operate. Do you know why regionals have to have a partnership with the majors? Why don't they just operate under their own name? Instead of United Express and Delta Connection.

Because it's really, really expensive to run an airline. Much cheaper to just run a wet leasing company, which is pretty much what all regionals are.