Unemployed

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Re: Unemployeed

Doug Taylor said:
We're both adults here so let me give you some constructive criticism. I'm not going to assume malice, but you're really coming off as a very bitter person, Aloft.
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You think? I'm playing by the rules, didn't have an opportunity to game the system such as Alex did, and yet with over 1100 hours legitimately logged, I'm still flying traffic watch in a 172 for minimum f'ing wage a handful of hours a week (just got my paycheck for the entire month of June: $137.26). [That's right, Seggy, jtrain and friends: I honored your virtual picket line and didn't apply at GoJet when I had the chance. Happy? Good. You can pay my overdue car registration and get its air conditioning fixed, cause I sure as hell don't have the money to.] To make matters worse, I'm forced to compete with all the furloughed 121 guys who got hired with 400 hrs for any and every job out there that would help me make the next step. Call it bitter if you want, but you try to not be frustrated in such a situation.

There are a lot of us on here who barely missed the last hiring wave, who will have a much more difficult time of things going forward than those who caught it--to including having to compete with them for jobs, having to meet the "newer, safer" mandated regional hiring rules that are sure to come. So forgive me if I have a low tolerance for a twenty year old who has yet to extract the silver spoon from his mouth complain about how working for $18,000/yr at Great Lakes is somehow beneath him. I can't even get that job, because I'm competing with people with bogus time like him and the other 400 hour wonders who've been furloughed. I hate to see anyone lose a job, but seriously: cry me a river.

So, Doug, while you're lounging poolside on your layover in Spain sipping your Sangria, why don't you reflect on just how easy you've had it in your career to date before calling someone out for being bitter. You haven't had it easy, you say? Refresh my memory: who paid for your ERAU education? How much turbine PIC time do you have again? That's what I thought.
 
Re: Unemployeed

aloft said:
You think? I'm playing by the rules, didn't have an opportunity to game the system such as Alex did, and yet with over 1100 hours legitimately logged, I'm still flying traffic watch in a 172 for minimum f'ing wage a handful of hours a week (just got my paycheck for the entire month of June: $137.26). [That's right, Seggy, jtrain and friends: I honored your virtual picket line and didn't apply at GoJet when I had the chance. Happy? Good. You can pay my overdue car registration and get its air conditioning fixed, cause I sure as hell don't have the money to.] To make matters worse, I'm forced to compete with all the furloughed 121 guys who got hired with 400 hrs for any and every job out there that would help me make the next step. Call it bitter if you want, but you try to not be frustrated in such a situation.

There are a lot of us on here who barely missed the last hiring wave, who will have a much more difficult time of things going forward than those who caught it--to including having to compete with them for jobs, having to meet the "newer, safer" mandated regional hiring rules that are sure to come. So forgive me if I have a low tolerance for a twenty year old who has yet to extract the silver spoon from his mouth complain about how working for $18,000/yr at Great Lakes is somehow beneath him. I can't even get that job, because I'm competing with people with bogus time like him and the other 400 hour wonders who've been furloughed. I hate to see anyone lose a job, but seriously: cry me a river.

So, Doug, while you're lounging poolside on your layover in Spain sipping your Sangria, why don't you reflect on just how easy you've had it in your career to date before calling someone out for being bitter. You haven't had it easy, you say? Refresh my memory: who paid for your ERAU education? How much turbine PIC time do you have again? That's what I thought.
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Your lack of a job has more to do with a post like this then 400 hour wonders and guys like Alex. :banghead:
 
Re: Unemployeed

Gonzo said:
Your lack of a job has more to do with a post like this then 400 hour wonders and guys like Alex. :banghead:
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Yeahhhh....I seem to recall you were one of the more vocal angry villagers saying I should be burned at the stake for not falling in line with the anti-GoJet crowd...(aside from the interesting little "I can get your resume walked in there" bait you laid out).
 
Re: Unemployeed

Gonzo said:
What are you talking about?
A friend who was a CFI would take me with him on flights and work on things.
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my re: was to aloft/OP

i know nothing of your situation.


dear dough, yeah man, i DO totally know what its like when your parents dont support you going to college, following your heart, applauding your hard work and milestones along the way, i hear ya.

unfortunately it seems like thats where my road stops. wrong place, wrong time, my hard work leads to a road that is currently being demolished and already has 3000 roadworkers lined up to do the work on it.

horrible analogy. but yeah. i do understand what some of you are saying, but i have yet to see any real, productive, concrete advice for guys in positions like me and aloft.

"keep at it" doesnt pay my rent. "washing planes" doesnt pay my student loan payments. "dont buy flight training on loans" has me not even TRYING to follow my dream.

and ill be damned if im going to live a life and not even attempt to do what i truly know im capable of just because of some invention called MONEY and the fact that i was not born with it.
 
Re: Unemployeed

I just glanced at this thread and there is quite a bit of emotional vitriol. I am sorry to hear you are now looking for a job like countless others out there. I hope you realize you are in quite an enviable position Alex, as your circumstances provided you with some benefits few are afforded. With this comes criticism from the other end whose merits can be debated with no clear winner. It is easy for the guy on the other end to get bent out of shape with the bill collectors nagging, struggling to afford a decent meal, and as aloft has mentioned even make the payments for the car's registration. From a young age we have all been indoctrinated with the idea of following your dreams no matter what. For some it has become an absolute nightmare. We have an unfortunate downturn we all have to ride out together. Keep yo chin up
 
Re: Unemployeed

Sorry to hear of your situation, Alex. Heck I was disappointed when I lost my Sightseeing gig in So Cal two falls ago. I did not need it for income. I was deeply upset I did not catch the last hiring wave since I wanted to fly for a carrier with a passion and follow my dreams like the rest of you. As a result, I went back to school and changed my major. I also became as active and involved as possible while making the most out of it. Just use this as an opportunity to make yourself stronger as well as more well-rounded and think of this as a Blessing, come what may.


There are currently a lot of people in every industry without jobs. I have friends who recently graduated from UCLA under the Business program and from other top universities with honors, who are living at home doing unpaid internships or volunteer work. Just be thankful for your blessings and keep at it. The struggles are what make success that much sweeter. You have me on FB msg me anytime if you want to chat.


The only jobs I can think of that start out over $50,000 and are currently hiring without the need of going through a post doctorate or grad school could probably be in the Engineering field and Accounting. But they spend a lot of time in the office on your desk analyzing numbers, if you or anyone enjoy this then more power to you. When the real estate industry was at its peak, lenders, banks, and realty establishments were hiring like crazy. Hiring anyone over the age of 18 and they would make a lot of money. (One reason why I think the Real estate bubble was not as bad as people think) Even Financial Analysts who would come fresh out of college and make $90,000 in annual compensation (stocks and bonuses included) are now almost non-existent due to the collapse of several financial institutions (Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, wa mu, Indie Mac)
At least in the airline industry even though you start off making way less, you still have the opportunity to travel, and have a reasonable ammount of days off in a month. And you have a job most people in those desks dream of.

So when it comes down to it, just follow your passion whilie being well rounded and never chase after money it'll come to you.
 
Re: Unemployeed

aloft said:
You think? I'm playing by the rules, didn't have an opportunity to game the system such as Alex did, and yet with over 1100 hours legitimately logged, I'm still flying traffic watch in a 172 for minimum f'ing wage a handful of hours a week (just got my paycheck for the entire month of June: $137.26). [That's right, Seggy, jtrain and friends: I honored your virtual picket line and didn't apply at GoJet when I had the chance. Happy? Good. You can pay my overdue car registration and get its air conditioning fixed, cause I sure as hell don't have the money to.] To make matters worse, I'm forced to compete with all the furloughed 121 guys who got hired with 400 hrs for any and every job out there that would help me make the next step. Call it bitter if you want, but you try to not be frustrated in such a situation.

There are a lot of us on here who barely missed the last hiring wave, who will have a much more difficult time of things going forward than those who caught it--to including having to compete with them for jobs, having to meet the "newer, safer" mandated regional hiring rules that are sure to come. So forgive me if I have a low tolerance for a twenty year old who has yet to extract the silver spoon from his mouth complain about how working for $18,000/yr at Great Lakes is somehow beneath him. I can't even get that job, because I'm competing with people with bogus time like him and the other 400 hour wonders who've been furloughed. I hate to see anyone lose a job, but seriously: cry me a river.

So, Doug, while you're lounging poolside on your layover in Spain sipping your Sangria, why don't you reflect on just how easy you've had it in your career to date before calling someone out for being bitter. You haven't had it easy, you say? Refresh my memory: who paid for your ERAU education? How much turbine PIC time do you have again? That's what I thought.
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You're owed absolutely nothing and the sooner you realize that Alex isn't standing in the way of your career and that perhaps your tendency to drop incendiary bombs on bridges is. You're one of my original users and many people have started in aviation, moved through the ranks and have excelled in their careers. Why aren't you where you want to be at this point? I have no idea, but it certainly isn't CK's doing, it's yours. Look at the above paragraph and do some soul searching.

Some friendly pointers to consider:

Knowing the heavy number of "lurkers": "If I was in a position to help, would I help the guy that has been dropping the vitriol in this thread?"

or

"If I hired this guy, judging on what and how he writes, would he be an employee who is going to come to work and perform, or be in my office every couple days complaining about other pilots?"

If Alex's career path bothers you that much, it's probably best to decouple and go argue about Chico's Taco's in the lavatory because I doubt if he cares about your opinion.

I've had it easy?

Compared to you? You started flying in 1987? Had the ratings and college whipped out by 1992-3 and were able to take advantage of the career swings of that era? Made the risks, delayed starting your life, chasing jobs, networking your ass off in a largely hopeless job market?

You were there? Dang, I don't remember seeing you on the scheduling list at Gryphon Aviation back in the 1980's.

Remember 2003, at Arriba's in Scottsdale when we were having lunch and you were so concerned about how Delta's terrible scope clause was standing between you and getting a job at Skywest? That was six years ago. Now you've got 135 IFR minimums six years later and you're spending precious time dancing on Alex's (temporary) grave instead of handling your own business?

But now I'm somehow responsible for you not being where you want to be?

My word, this is going to be entertaining.

I seriously hope anyone looking for a 135 IFR-qualified pilot with a positive attitude hasn't read this thread.

You don't think you've gotten a fair shake. Well, you can either complain about it or work harder.

And no, in my 22nd year of being a pilot, I'm not going to feel a lick of guilt when that Spanish sun hits my skin and that first drop of Valencian beer his my belly this afternoon.
 
Re: Unemployeed

Dude I feel you Aloft but there will always be someone that will have it easier and harder in this field. I know you feel like you got the short stick but it could be a lot worse.

Like it or not Alex is unemployed. Let's give the dude the respect he deserves and motivation to continue.

This is about another unemployed pilot looking for work not about GoJet's, who had it easier, or whose you know what is bigger then the others.
 
Re: Unemployeed

aloft said:
You think? I'm playing by the rules, didn't have an opportunity to game the system such as Alex did, and yet with over 1100 hours legitimately logged, I'm still flying traffic watch in a 172 for minimum f'ing wage a handful of hours a week (just got my paycheck for the entire month of June: $137.26). [That's right, Seggy, jtrain and friends: I honored your virtual picket line and didn't apply at GoJet when I had the chance. Happy? Good. You can pay my overdue car registration and get its air conditioning fixed, cause I sure as hell don't have the money to.] To make matters worse, I'm forced to compete with all the furloughed 121 guys who got hired with 400 hrs for any and every job out there that would help me make the next step. Call it bitter if you want, but you try to not be frustrated in such a situation.

There are a lot of us on here who barely missed the last hiring wave, who will have a much more difficult time of things going forward than those who caught it--to including having to compete with them for jobs, having to meet the "newer, safer" mandated regional hiring rules that are sure to come. So forgive me if I have a low tolerance for a twenty year old who has yet to extract the silver spoon from his mouth complain about how working for $18,000/yr at Great Lakes is somehow beneath him. I can't even get that job, because I'm competing with people with bogus time like him and the other 400 hour wonders who've been furloughed. I hate to see anyone lose a job, but seriously: cry me a river.

So, Doug, while you're lounging poolside on your layover in Spain sipping your Sangria, why don't you reflect on just how easy you've had it in your career to date before calling someone out for being bitter. You haven't had it easy, you say? Refresh my memory: who paid for your ERAU education? How much turbine PIC time do you have again? That's what I thought.
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Matt,

I am trying to say this in the most constructive manner possible, especially since we work in the same market, so please don't take this negatively:

If you had the basic qualifications I could have, and would have gotten you a CFI job three times over within the last year in this market. I have been approached by about half a dozen students out of U42 looking for a good freelance CFI within the last six months, but its not worth it for me to drive up there. Since I am very big on sending work I can't take to someone I know, I give them the number of a guy I know up there. I would have just as easily given them your number.

In this market I have logged 1200 hours and change of dual given in the last two years, plus I don't know how many hours of ground and sim. I have turned away more students than I have taken because I just don't have time for all of them. Yes things have slowed considerably lately. Yes there are some furloughed fast trackers to contend with, but they will be gone the second they get the chance and I really don't see them as a genuine problem. But there is still plenty of work to be had if one can take it.

I know you have some problem with the whole CFI thing, and its a dead horse as far as I am concerned, but you really can't put yourself on an equal footing without it.

I see the phrase "Preparation meets opportunity" in this thread, well, there sure as hell are opportunities around here.
 
Re: Unemployeed

aloft said:
Think so, Ed? Ask Alex how many hours of jet/multi-turbine time he'd logged before he could drive a car or solo a 152, and how he came to log them. His CFI corporate/charter pilot mother knew how to game the system and made sure he was primed to do so. In my opinion, it was nothing more than logbook padding, made legal by his mama's signature.

THAT'S how he got where he is today, not through hard work.
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Aloft,

You have no idea how my career progressed, those 5 hours of jet time, 15 hours of turbine time, and 60 hours of multi time that I logged with my mother I had zero affect on my career. I will drop a little knowledge on you so you know where I am coming from.

My first aviation job was as a lineman that I got from hanging around the airport everyweekend and asking for a job for three years. When I was 16, I finally got one. I worked long days as the only person at the FBO. During the summer it would be nonstop work for twelve hours a day, leaving me exhausted at the end of the day. Did I mention I was doing college classes during this time?

During this time I started an aerial photography business and dedicated all of my free time mailing letters to local realtors letting them know about the services I offered. I also spent what ever little free time I had washing airplanes and begging for rides from ever person I met/fueled working at the FBO. This networking would lead me to where I am today.

The owner of the FBO started a flight school and liked me. He offered me a job as a CFI as I had recently gotten my CFI. I worked 7 days a week, around taking 18 (and later 27) credits a semster at a school that was an hour drive each way. I built a reputation as a CFI that could fly any piston airplane and my student base grew quickly.

I had a little bit of glass panel time through a connection I made pumping gas. A client of the FBO had recently purchased a 6X and I stayed on him every time I saw him about letting me teach him a little about the Avidyne panel he had. He finally relented and this led to my job flying the 6X, Saratoga, Malibu, 414, 425, and Aerostar.

During that job I continued to instruct, wash airplane, and network with every person out there. When I was layed off, I made a phone call to a person I met five years earlier who had a Meridian. He had always liked me, and offered me a job on the spot. When I was layed off this time, I networked my ass off again for a few days, and my new business will have a client base of around 30 people by the end of the month (more on that later).

This weekend I will be flying a B-25 in an airshow in OH from a connection that I made and kept through hard work.

My resume, insurance forms, and times I tell people do not include any of my dual recieved time, only my PIC times. I don't want to sound arrogant, but they are impressive, if you want to get into what they are I gladly will with you.

Now, for the main point of this story; none of these people know who my mom is. If you go to any airport in Delaware, 99% of the people will know Bob and Jo McMahon as Alex McMahon's parents, not the other way around. My parents have not been responsible for a single job I have gotten. My mom got a job at Netjets through a contact I made. She owes her job to my networking ability. And not a single job was gained through the Navajo/Citation time I gained with my mother, none of my bosses ever even knew I flew with my mother.

I have not flown with either of my parents since I was 15. They divorced when I was 13, and with a brother and a sister, there was no money for me to learn to fly. The grand total that my parents paid for my flying and college....$0. It my ability to hustle that got me where I am, no matter what you think.


Now I won't deny that my parents have shaped me as a man and as a pilot. But they are not the sole reason I have had the career that I have had. And one more thing, if I was this spoiled little brat that you think I am, why do you think people would like me so much and keep hiring me?

Now I'm sorry if any thing I have said comes off as arrogant, but I had to set the record straight.

Alex.

P.S. There were a lot of other jobs that I have had in aviation that I did not mention, once again, my bosses there had no idea who my parents were.
 
Re: Unemployeed

I'm reading all these inspiring stories, I wanted to share mine too.

I actually got my first job off of a lotto ticket. Then I literally tripped over my second job, my boss didn't care much who he hired. On my third job I just happened to be staying at the battlefield inn in manassas on my "hooker and weed tour of america" and some of the guys at the hotel thought it'd be funny to bring me into class (records were so badly kept that they thought they actually hired me). My last job I actually killed the real joe who was suppose to be in the class and no one ever told the difference. Luckily he had a logbook with hours to spare for the upgrade so I took it with the free lemon shots and tupperware.
:beer:
 
Re: Unemployeed

Ooh, I just remembered that I'm flying with another FO that was in my new hire class. Being that I was the only regional pilot that had upgraded to captain in class 98-02, this is going to be an interesting take on how "lucky" I was to be in that ground school when we meet for dinner.
 
Re: Unemployeed

Alex --

I took the time to read through all your blogs and I can see the work you have put into where you are today.

Good luck!

Ryan
 
Re: Unemployeed

Alex you should write a perspectives article. It would be great to have your experience, drive, and good attitude on display for other aspiring pilots to see.
 
Re: Unemployeed

Doug: I started flying in 1986, thank you. Professional flying wasn't even an option for me until the visual acuity standards changed in 1993/94. I didn't finish my private ticket until 2002, and having an aversion to the huge training loans some here are burdened with, I pretty much trained/flew at a pace that my finances would allow. Pretty much just as you advocate to virtually everyone on here. But that's really not germane to the discussion. If I'm not mistaken, you had your ERAU flight training and education funded by a relative, or an inheritance or something, correct? You have about 40% fewer hours of turbine PIC time than your present employer normally requires of applicants, correct? You have never missed a hiring wave or been furloughed, correct? That's what I'm talking about when I say you've had it pretty easy. Other than the post-9/11 pay cuts you suffered, I have yet to read of any hardships you've endured in your career. If I'm missing something, by all means, enlighten me.

Ben: If I'd had the cash, I'd have gotten my CFI ticket last fall. As it is, I don't have the estimated $1600 it would take. And it's not that I've had anything against being a CFI, I've just always been of the opinion that low-time pilots don't have an experience base from which to really teach anything but how to pass the checkride, and being that sort of instructor has no appeal for me. A thousand hours later, I'm at the point where I feel I have a sufficient experience base from which to actually teach something beyond the PTS.

Alex: several years ago, you gave the impression that you logged several hundred hours of multiengine and/or turbine experience riding right seat with your mother. Either I'm mistaken about that, or you were lying then, or you're lying now. If I'm mistaken, I apologize. Now, I don't know about you, but even the 60 hrs of multiengine time you now claim--worth roughly $12,000---would make a significant difference in my employability/insurability right now. I have only the 10 hrs it took to earn my multi rating, and I have yet to come across an employer who will look at anyone with less than 25 hrs of twin time.

In any event, my point is that there are many, many pilots in the same predicament (or worse) as Alex right now. Sure, it's okay to vent about it and seek community support, but do so with the knowledge that you're hardly the only one. All I seem to read around here is sympathy for furloughees, which is fine, but let's keep in mind that for every guy furloughed, things just got that much worse for those of us not even on a seniority list someplace yet.
 
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