UAL/CAL Seniority Award

Obviously I don't have a dog in the fight.

I just remember this conversation with some US vs AW guys. It always seemed to me that if a US guy had wanted to, he could've gone to AW and been a captain. Instead he chose to be a mid-level FO at US while younger guys at AW were being hired and upgrading. We all make choices, and sometimes we hitch our wagon to the wrong horse. It sucks, but we can minimize the suck by at least integrating so that no one gets effed. What you are prior is what you are after. I just can't see how anything else is more equitable.
 
What is going on here? Is this argument really happening? Shirley you can't really think that age means anything when it comes to a seniority list @HVYMETALDRVR . Are you saying that someone hired after you who is older should go ahead of you at your own company? How does age equal experience in an airplane anyways? Mind blown.
 
ClarkGriswold said:
What is going on here? Is this argument really happening? Shirley you can't really think that age means anything when it comes to a seniority list @HVYMETALDRVR . Are you saying that someone hired after you who is older should go ahead of you at your own company? How does age equal experience in an airplane anyways? Mind blown.
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Date of hire which often means age and experience. Whether they integrate above or below you is a different debate entirely but Im advocating 1 v 1 to DOH. My mind is blown also.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Date of hire which often means age and experience. Whether they integrate above or below you is a different debate entirely but Im advocating 1 v 1 to DOH. My mind is blown also.
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Goes back to the argument about longevity vs. seniority. Two separate topics that unfortunately get molded into one when these ideas start. If at the time the merger is announced and you are bidding 50% you should hope that you are bidding 50% when the new list is constructed. Arbitrators for the longest time have viewed furloughed employees as non employees and this is what hurt the USAir pilot group a lot. 1 to 1 is great for longevity purposes, but our system is built around seniority and that's where the problem lies.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
Date of hire which often means age and experience. Whether they integrate above or below you is a different debate entirely but Im advocating 1 v 1 to DOH. My mind is blown also.
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Not quite, you could have someone in the same class that is 25 and another guy that is 55. So they both have the same experience level going by your DOH theory, correct? I know of someone who is at Delta that was the youngest in his class at 25 but he had the most TT of everyone. So who had more experience him or the older guys? AGE means NOTHING.

Example. A guy could be hired at CAL in 2005 at age 55 and a UAL guy hired in 1997 could only be 45 in 2005, who should go ahead in the age equals experience list? Obviously the UAL guy is senior but he is younger and less experienced in your eyes correct? You can't merge two vastly different companies by DOH because of the reasons that have been listed before by others. DOH is easier BUT it screws by far the most amount of people, and that is not cool. Maybe they should look at categories and merge people who are relatively in the same position without looking at their DOH too much, I think that will keep everyone about where they were before the lists are integrated. You think that might work?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Age has nothing to do with seniority. Seniority = bidding power. A 25 year old who sits at 10% on the seniority list has much better bidding power than a 50 year old who sits at 50% on the seniority list. Sucks for the 50 year old, but that's seniority. When that list is merged with another list, the only thing that matters is maintaining bidding power so as to ensure that neither side achieves a windfall at the expense of the other. Age doesn't matter, DOH doesn't matter, nothing else matters.
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Yep, the 23-year-old in the class ahead of me will get to bid captain first. Pretty strange, but that's how it is.

(Incidentally, I favor everyone doing one month a year on reserve - just as a reminder of what reserve is like - but for where you sit in the airplane I can't think of a better way to hand out Captain and FO seats.)

Derg said:
Oh hell, I'm still younger than a big percentage of new hires and I've been at my present carrier since 1998.
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I promise not to smirk whilst swinging gear.
 
The problem is you guys are riding the exceptions, not the general rule. There are always exceptions, sure. We have a couple guys that were hired here at the age of 19, now 15 years later they're in the top 10 percent and still have 30 years before retirement (I'm at a regional). They make six figures, pick they're schedule, and still aren't too old to bail for a major.

But take the top 25% of the SL from AA, DL, USair, and United, how many are under 42 and/or have been flying for less than 20 years. I'd bank its not many.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
I still respectfully disagree completely, its easy to sit in a board room or office and play with the SL like its the roster of the Yankees. But its an entirely different thing to go out on the line and see people face to face and say "sorry but that guy hired 5 years after you will be upgrading to your position, your an FO again."
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The idea is to NOT downgrade someone. You can avoid that without doing DOH only. There were Midwest pilots with 06 and maybe 07 hire dates. By the DOH method, they would most certainly be FOs again.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
The problem is you guys are riding the exceptions, not the general rule. There are always exceptions, sure. We have a couple guys that were hired here at the age of 19, now 15 years later they're in the top 10 percent and still have 30 years before retirement (I'm at a regional). They make six figures, pick they're schedule, and still aren't too old to bail for a major.

But take the top 25% of the SL from AA, DL, USair, and United, how many are under 42 and/or have been flying for less than 20 years. I'd bank its not many.
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This is one of those instances when I'm having a circular debate with wife, I clasp my hands together, lean in and ask, "What can I say to make you happy, hon?" :)
 
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