UAL/CAL Seniority Award

Glad to see the arbitrator's and or ALPA learned from the disaster that was the USAirways/America West ISL.

I have many friends on the junior side at UAL. Glad to see they did not suffer the same fate as the junior pilots at USAirways.

Sadly aviation and airline history is littered with corpses from past mistakes. It takes those mistakes for the industry to learn.

The bottom 3rd of the CAL list would tell you that you're smoking something and that they got screwed. So while you think this is some sort of wonderful thing, they think it's an abomination, just like you think the AAA/AWA merger was an abomination.

In reality, if you're doing basically the same thing after the integration that you were doing before with the same bidding power, then it was a fair integration. And by that standard, both the Nic and the new UAL/CAL award are fair.
 
Seems somewhat fair in comparison to other SLI's, but I hate pilots sometimes. It should just be 1 v 1 by DOH, if a United and Con guy have the same DOH, then United guy/girl is senior. Only fair way to do it. When we finally got our SLI and incorporated MDW into our list at RAH they credited 717 CA's with a '92 DOH to early '06 and '00 DOH were stuffed below the '08 hires.

Stupid.

DOH doesn't work. Your date of hire is only relevant within your own airline's seniority list. Ten years of seniority at USAirways before their merger was a furloughed pilot. Ten years of seniority at AWA was a captain's position. Should a furloughed pilot be placed above a captain? Obviously not.

In this integration, the arbitration panel put some weight on longevity, but skewed the result towards category and status, which is what all seniority arbitrations have favored lately. Why? Because the end result is that your bidding power after the merger is basically the same as it was prior to the merger. No windfalls.
 
I'm curious. What was CAL's proposal exactly?

Merge captains with captains and FOs with FOs using a straight ratio, but only after they artificially reduced the number of UAL captain positions by claiming that UAL was hugely overstaffed. The arbitration panel found it completely unworkable.
 
I've actually been concerned about that, but from my "non-scientific" polling during my commutes and occasional jumpseaters, it actually isn't that bad. Most are ready to move on, and no one wants to import the toxic virus that plagued US Airways for years.

He said it was an entire company culture thing. Not only the pilots.
 
DOH doesn't work. Your date of hire is only relevant within your own airline's seniority list. Ten years of seniority at USAirways before their merger was a furloughed pilot. Ten years of seniority at AWA was a captain's position. Should a furloughed pilot be placed above a captain? Obviously not.

I still respectfully disagree completely, its easy to sit in a board room or office and play with the SL like its the roster of the Yankees. But its an entirely different thing to go out on the line and see people face to face and say "sorry but that guy hired 5 years after you will be upgrading to your position, your an FO again."

The thing that further exacerbates this is the age 65 rule (previously of course 60). As things stand right now every one of us flying 121 have a magic date when we are no longer fit to fly for the airlines anymore (mine is 9/12/2048). Every day that date gets closure irregardless of what we fly or who we fly for. Now generally speaking, the higher you go on the SL the older people get (although OF COURSE this isn't always the case) and the more burdens they have (mortgage, kids, tuition, etc). Since everyone on the list is paying the same union, and its the unions job to do whats best for the group this only makes sense that the follow DOH.

In thinking about this more, I also recognize some exceptions can be made. For example when merging of different aircraft types I see why a temporary fence is often put up to reduce training costs and stop involuntarily displacements. I also recognize that just like our politicians passing laws, no matter which way you go someone always gets screwed, but IMO this seems to be the best way.
 
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I still respectfully disagree completely, its easy to sit in a board room or office and play with the SL like its the roster of the Yankees. But its an entirely different thing to go out on the line and see people face to face and say "sorry but that guy hired 5 years after you will be upgrading to your position, your an FO again."

The thing that further exacerbates this is the age 65 rule (previously of course 60). As things stand right now every one of us flying 121 have a magic date when we are no longer fit to fly for the airlines anymore (mine is 9/12/2068). Every day that date gets closure irregardless of what we fly or who we fly for. Now generally speaking, the higher you go on the SL the older people get (although OF COURSE this isn't always the case) and the more burdens they have (mortgage, kids, tuition, etc). Since everyone on the list is paying the same union, and its the unions job to do whats best for the group this only makes sense that the follow DOH.

In thinking about this more, I also recognize some exceptions can be made. For example when merging of different aircraft types I see why a temporary fence is often put up to reduce training costs and stop involuntarily displacements.

In theory, if a relative integration is done correctly no one gets displaced, and no one upgrades. If you're at 50% seniority before, you are 50% after integration.

I see the appeal of DOH, but ATN is right on this one. DOH just doesn't mean anything outside of your current company.
 
In theory, if a relative integration is done correctly no one gets displaced, and no one upgrades. If you're at 50% seniority before, you are 50% after integration.

Why? you quit, get fired, or retire at 65. Nobody can stay in the game indefinitely. Not saying a merger doesn't slow things down though.
 
Now generally speaking, the higher you go on the SL the older people get (although OF COURSE this isn't always the case) and the more burdens they have (mortgage, kids, tuition, etc). Since everyone on the list is paying the same union, and its the unions job to do whats best for the group this only makes sense that the follow DOH.

Age has nothing to do with seniority. Seniority = bidding power. A 25 year old who sits at 10% on the seniority list has much better bidding power than a 50 year old who sits at 50% on the seniority list. Sucks for the 50 year old, but that's seniority. When that list is merged with another list, the only thing that matters is maintaining bidding power so as to ensure that neither side achieves a windfall at the expense of the other. Age doesn't matter, DOH doesn't matter, nothing else matters.
 
Oh hell, I'm still younger than a big percentage of new hires and I've been at my present carrier since 1998.
 
Age has nothing to do with seniority. Seniority = bidding power. A 25 year old who sits at 10% on the seniority list has much better bidding power than a 50 year old who sits at 50% on the seniority list. Sucks for the 50 year old, but that's seniority. When that list is merged with another list, the only thing that matters is maintaining bidding power so as to ensure that neither side achieves a windfall at the expense of the other. Age doesn't matter, DOH doesn't matter, nothing else matters.

We could go all night I guess, but how many 25 year olds or even 35 year olds are there in the top 10% of any 121 SL with more than 500 pilots? Some I'm sure... but not many. I can think of maybe 4 under 32? a couple others are right around the 34-36 mark at my company which has a 3,000+ pilot list.

Its more than just "fairness" because the older person has more bills. In most cases this person has been in the game longer, has numerous type ratings, and a wealth of experience to bring to the table which should be recognized. This is why a lot of experienced and skilled guys get dejected and bow out. Its about more than just ensuring that the top 30% continues to get Saturdays off.
 
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DOH does not equal age. There are some older guys at JetBlue who obviously were hired after a lot of younger guys at AA, for instance.

Got it, but see my above posts. At my company we had 99-00' hires tagged after 08' hires. Most of the 08' hires weren't even pilots, some high school or even jr high then.
 
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Got it, but see my above posts. At my company we had 99-00' hires tagged after 08' hires. A lot of the 08' hires were in high school or jr high then.

Yeah, and that's irrelevant. It certainly wouldn't be fair to put someone senior to a younger pilot merely because he is older. If you are at 50%, you stay at 50%. Why isn't that the best solution?

Someone who is older should get a windfall in seniority purely due to their age?
 
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