Very good deciphering that. I'm glad you stated the obvious.
Type Rated FO logging time manipulating controls as PIC per part 61
- Thread starter Ziggyfuzz
- Start date
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Oh... saucy.
Are we talking brown gravy or white with your mashed potatoes?
Ziggyfuzz
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the opinions guys, I am just going to continue to log SIC time as appropriate and acceptable. I am not expecting flight time to open any doors in the new climate that is out there. We meet the min's or not, after that other attributes will move us along. In the past eight years, the feds have not once wanted to see my logbook, I am merely required to put a statement in a letter each year that states how much "PIC" in airplanes I have logged in the previous 12 months. It really is silly, the feds have even stated that they know that is not acceptable for many of our employers or prospective employers. So, as far as I am concerned I will put the SIC in my logbook ( I don't need to stroke my "PIC" ego) and then if the feds ever want to look at my logbook they will have to accept the logged SIC time as PIC in effect, based on the fact I am type rated, etc. per part 61. Clear as mud!
msw
Well-Known Member
I'm just curious, never having been in the 121 world....... Are the airline hiring boards (or persons) not aware of the existence of Part 61 and what those "logging PIC" rules are? Because the time as described by the OP seems like perfectly legally "loggable" PIC time. Kinda goes back to that perennial favorite topic of discussion ..... the difference between "Logging PIC time" vs. "Acting as PIC". Type rated pilot, sole manipulator of controls, Part 61 ....... that time is legally loggable as PIC time ...... and would be perfectly "useable" as PIC time for FAA purposes, like towards another certificate or rating or whatever. But the "airlines don't like it"? Is that the crust of the situation?
RRPower
Well-Known Member
They are saying "PIC" time to make it easy. What they are looking for is 121 turbine time while ACTING as Captain, not necessarily PIC time as defined in 61. Same with military, the only person that can "log PIC" time is the aircraft commander, regardless of who sits where or even if he/she is in the cockpit.
msw
Well-Known Member
Got it. And if this is the case, it would seem that the best advice for a young aspiring airline pilot, might be to start out with multiple "PIC columns" in ones log book. One column might be for "All PIC" - which would include everything loggable as PIC time (sole manipulator, etc) - and this column would be useful for the PIC time required for advanced ratings/certificates, since what one cares about for that is simply what the FAA considers loggable PIC time (Part 61 definition). Then another column for "Aircraft Commander PIC Time" (or whatever you want to call it.) And still another column for Aircraft Commander TPIC time. Thoughts? And this might be fairly easy to do with today's computerized logbooks. Do airlines actually look at logbooks these days? Last time anyone asked to see my logbook, Gerald Ford was President. (Then again, all my flying since then has been 91.)
RRPower
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I guess some people could do multiple columns. To me, RJ PIC time only means a hill of beans to get hired at a major. We fly enough that you will get all the pic time you could ever want when you make Captain . For my GA flying, they just care about TT and time in type. While FAA legal, I will not be logging PIC time until I sign for the airplane.
RRPower
Well-Known Member
Really? I thought like the military, only one signed for the plane and only one PIC. That's like if the CA goes and hits the head on our flight, I'm acting PIC but only in theory.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
Well, I do know your über magic TPIC time doesn't start running until after Captain IOE...
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Yep, I don't know all the voodoo behind it, but our FOM requires that we sign the release when the CA goes on break. If I do (most don't care, and I don't care to sign junk on F/O pay), I still don't log the PIC.
Autothrust Blue
"Well, on the Brasilia..."
"Close...but not quite!"
RRPower
Well-Known Member
I find it interesting that you sign the release after the fact. You are signing to acknowledge it is the correct flight and you agree with the dispatchers that all parameters have been met for a safe successful flight.
30K up over the North Atlantic:
Nope, doesn't look right to me, I'm not signing for this...
I kid...I know FOMs/FARs/OpSpecs rarely make sense...I get the point
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
To illustrate the "different inspectors, different answer" idea. I asked one of the local inspectors about this. Her response was "How do you log "sole manipulator" in a plane that's flown by two pilots per the certification?" Barring an emergency situation (or a short bathroom break) I couldn't answer.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
It's to show the captain wasn't in the seat more than 8 hours. Not signing it to accept the release.
