touch-n-go
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:Good on these guys! There are some good people left in this world after all
Hope their families aren't targeted if they are still in Libya. Heroic move on the pilots part if they are for real.
Two Libyan Mirage F1 fighters defect to Malta
- Thread starter bunk22
- Start date
Hope their families aren't targeted if they are still in Libya. Heroic move on the pilots part if they are for real.
WacoFan
Bigly
Say what you want about GW Bush (and I have, I'm not a fan) - but he said shortly after 9-11 that the idea of proping up regimes hasn't kept us safer and began to tout middle eastern democracy. First Afghanistan and Iraq. Now Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain is protesting, Jordan has protested, Yemen, Iran, and now we are watching the end days of Qaddafi's regime. GWB said repeatedly that democracy would be the key to the middle east, and particularly for women in the middle east.
I'm not sure how much of this was inspired by Iraq and Afghanistan being able to vote, but you have to figure it had some effect on the thinking. So, for Egypt we don't know how this will turn out (good for us, or bad) nor Tunisia - but it literally couldn't get worse in Libya or Iran than it currently is with the existing leadership. It is really interesting times. Of course, if this were 1985 we would have all three channels doing "Special Reports" because of the Libyan situation, and Koppel would be talking about it nightly. In 2011 they are running the Bachelor. It's depressing.
I'm not sure how much of this was inspired by Iraq and Afghanistan being able to vote, but you have to figure it had some effect on the thinking. So, for Egypt we don't know how this will turn out (good for us, or bad) nor Tunisia - but it literally couldn't get worse in Libya or Iran than it currently is with the existing leadership. It is really interesting times. Of course, if this were 1985 we would have all three channels doing "Special Reports" because of the Libyan situation, and Koppel would be talking about it nightly. In 2011 they are running the Bachelor. It's depressing.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Yep, he ought to hang higher than Haman for that stuff. He shut up and played nice after 9/11 when he got scared, but he is a brutal murderer who was always a bigger pain in the backside than Saddam Hussein ever was. Hopefully his day of reckoning will come soon. a
seagull
Well-Known Member
That is very cool. Someone to come from that sort of background and do well is always a great thing to hear.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Excellent post! I just hope this is 1989 coming down and the islamic world have a Scorpions "wind of changes" moment. I hope it is not 1978-79 Iran. I am cautiously optimistic, and hope for the former. Unfortunately in the interest of stability, right or wrong, we have been "allies" with some strongmen and that does not bode well for the US/west. Looking at the Turkey and the systematic dismantling ot the Kemalist ideal by Erdogan, the trend may not be our friend. I personally hope Gadfhi goes down hard.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I don't see any conceivable way that this "goes down" well for the West (aka, the US and our lapdogs) vis a vis gas prices or "stability for Israel" (aka they can violate whatever agreements they like with no fear of repercussions) in the short term. That said, freedom and democracy always go down well in the long run. And if it hastens the demise of our rudderless, desperate, frankly preposterous consumption-lifestyle, then it will be all the better for everyone involved. Will it end in tears? Someone will be crying, somewhere, for sure. That said, Viva la Revolution! It's high time.
Apophis
Resident Iconoclast
Great post. There's a lot of good insight in this thread.
Problem is, Kahadafi was never our lapdog. He'd espouse the meeds of the muslim world, even though he never really had any use for it. So with that one......as well as Bahrain, another place we dont really hear much from........I'm wondering what the real reasons are behind whats going on. Khadafi was never any friend of the US.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
In regards to armament, I'd imagine they jettisoned it before approaching Maltese airspace. A signal of, "we come in peace" if you will. At least that's what I would have done in that position.
Orange Anchor
New Member
Photos appear to show armament pods on the wing stations.
Assuming the squibs are installed for it. May or may not be.
WacoFan
Bigly
I think it will create some short-term pain for us and Israel - maybe. Egypt changing certainly makes things wobbly because he was a "friendly" dictator - but GWB (and again, it pains me) - said a lot of times that the "friendly dictator" idea obviously didn't keep us safe on 9-11, so let's try something different. Obviously they didn't start with Egypt, but I can't help but think that at least some of the people saw Afghans and Iraqi's voting and were inspired by that.
In the long run, I am an optimist - or at least willing to let whatever happens happen. If the people vote for hard-core Islamists, then our actions will necessarily follow theirs - if they are aggressive and we counter-punch much harder you would have to think that at some point people will vote against that at some point and long-term they will elect governments that are more secular, embrace market-based economies and try to grow. People who are well fed and have some amount of economic comfort generally don't revolt (I'm guessing here) - and I believe that at some point, given self-determination, people will seek out being well-fed and having some amount of economic comfort. The issue is, it might take a little while and it may in the interim be a path that is violent and bloody. My thought is that this process has to be gone through anyway...may as well start the process now.
As for changing our consumption based lifestyle, etc - that would potentially be a huge "win" for us - and perhaps a lesson in what is truly important vs. The Bachelor/Dancing with the Stars etc. I'm not wildly optimistic about this - but I can hope. Another thing that people do not take into account - oil is certainly important, but supply and demand effects middle eastern countries as well. The USA has vast amounts of oil. Additionally, Synthetic fuels have been around for 80 years in workable form (I.G. Farben in Germany in the 30's and 40's - about half of Germany's WW2 oil used was synthetic and over 90% of their aviation fuel used was synthetic). Between domestic oil, oil from other areas, and different fuel technologies - we could dramatically lower our importation of middle eastern oil. If the oil gets too expensive, the alternatives which are not cost-efficient at this point start to look a lot better. The middle east's oil is worthless without a buyer. We are the primary buyer right now - they need us as much or more as we need them. Additionally - yesterday the oil fields in Benghazi were shut down - because American oil companies and other western workers were pulled out. They can raise prices - we can cut demand, embargo their oil, and limit the amount of drilling, refining and intellectual expertise that the middle eastern oil companies need. I'm not saying that it would be easy - it wouldn't. I am saying that a protracted "oil war" would damage the middle eastern countries worse than our own I think. Without our hard currency in exchange for their oil, they lose a lot.
Egypt - has the potential (short-term) to be much worse than it has been for the USA and Israel obviously.
Tunisia - same deal as Egypt (short-term).
Libya - whatever replaces Qaddafi can't actually be worse than Qaddafi in my view. What could potentially be worse than a man who orders his military to fire on its own citizens and has perpatrated the crimes against the USA that he has over the years? He's about as hostile as it gets to the USA and Israel already - can't deteriorate much from that.
Iran - Same as Libya, can't get much more hostile than that already - worst case scenario is a regime that is "just as hostile" - because you can't get more.
Yemen - same as Libya.
Bahrain - ??? who knows.
I honestly believe that GWB may have seen this after 9-11 said "screw it - we're going to promote democracy in the middle east". He is on record as saying (I think in early 2002) that promoting and maintaining the leaders in the middle east obviously hadn't kept us safe and we needed to tack toward democracy.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
We agree far too much, I am now seriously freaked out.
That said, one thing where we majorly dropped the ball is in trying to enforce democracy in Middle Eastern countries. To badly paraphrase Monty Python, power comes from a mandate from the masses, and not because of some farcical aquatic ceremony...I mean, not because we're dropping bombs on Saddam. A homegrown democratic movement will work and provide actual self-determination. And not necessarily a government that is as friendly to American interests as the previous administration.
Orange Anchor
New Member
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/image123006.html
Second shot. As a friend noted, good tires on this machine. Also interesting study in the crew gear. The inboard pod appears to have had something on it but was dropped. Increase size and you can see a retaining pin in place.
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2011-2/21/123028.jpg
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
Quick quips... but,
A) I wouldn't be seen around town with G suit pants on...
B) Isn't a Mirage a bit out of sorts for ground suppression/ crowd control? If you're going to bomb your own people, at least send equipment that is set to handle close A/G support in a city. (Like a helo)
A) I wouldn't be seen around town with G suit pants on...
B) Isn't a Mirage a bit out of sorts for ground suppression/ crowd control? If you're going to bomb your own people, at least send equipment that is set to handle close A/G support in a city. (Like a helo)
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Those rocket pods looked pretty effective to me, but who knows.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
Sure they would be in a somewhat limited manner. Against an unorganized group of people there are much better weapons, IE something that doesn't have to move at several hunder miles per hour to stay on target... and in the air.
That makes me wonder about the story some...