Two CFIs in an a/c

Flying_Corporal

Flying_Corporal

New Member
Recently I went up to practice landings with another CFI (we both work at the same school). It was a windy day with gusts up to 31kts.

Winds: 240 at 20 gusting to 31kts
Rwy in use: 24

I felt uncomfotable when the controller changed to a rwy 19 which was aligned more than 50 degrees with wind. I asked the CFI-flying whether he wanted to stick to rwy 24. He said no.

The approach and landing made me very uncomfortable. I was saying to myself that even though I wasn't flying if sth happened, both of us would be responsible and it would certanly go to my record.

If I was with a student I would definitely waive off this landing. But saying this to an instructor who has almost as much hours as me didn't feel right.

Has anyone experienced this before? Any good advice on how best or the least confrontational method to deal with this situation?
 
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If I was with a student I would definitely waive off this landing. But saying this to an instructor who has almost as much hours as me didn't feel right.

Has anyone experienced this before? Any good advice on how best or the least confrontational method to deal with this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]They say that the most dangerous thing in an airplane is 2 CFIs. No offense meant, but I think you've told us why.

You =really= didn't wave off a landing that you thought was potentially dangerous because you were embarrassed about appearing less macho? Remember mom's admonition about jumping off a bridge just because "Buster" does it?

My basic rule when flying with others is that =any= discomfort with a procedure should be expressed. In the event that an agreement cannot be reached between the pilots, he who is most chicken wins.

The least confrontational way to deal with it is to make it a stated guideline up front, along with the decision about which pilot is in command of the flight.
 
Haven't had this issue, but if the flying pilot felt comfortable attempting the approach I see no problem with that as long as you both agree to go around if at any time either of you feel a safe landing cannot be made.

How did his landing turn out?
 
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How did his landing turn out?

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It turned out bouncy and a full stop instead of a touch-and-go. C-172 is a very forgiving a/c.


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You =really= didn't wave off a landing that you thought was potentially dangerous because you were embarrassed about appearing less macho?


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No, not really. I am pretty conservative. I just didn't want to get into a confrontation. The other CFI would most probably take is personally and question me why I take precedence over his decision.

I think you nail it right. Everything should be decided on the ground and the most chicken pilot wins. thanks for that one - I will remember it !
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Has anyone experienced this before? Any good advice on how best or the least confrontational method to deal with this situation?

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Kind of, but not really. Most of the CFI's I worked with were really cool and we were all friends, so if we went flying together and one of us was uncomfortable, we'd just use humor to express it.

"Hey John, bet you can't hit the runway...."

"Hey Marsh, I have a date tonight, so don't kill us..."

"You're buying the beer tonight if you prang it on..."

"So, uh....you gonna flare?"

"Hey, the runway's down there..." (if we're high)

Things like that...
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That usually kept whoever was flying on their toes (cause really, who wants to pay for beer?!), and also subtely let them know that you were reaching the edge of your comfort zone with whatever was going on. The guys I worked with I trusted 110%, but still...after flying with students all the time, its hard to keep quiet on final if things get a little goofy.

I guess if I didn't know the guy, I would just be polite and up front about it. Better to risk sounding like a jerk now, than wish you'd said something later.
 
Something else to keep in mind that the FAA'll bust both CFI's if they're involved in a violation.
 
Most dangerous words a pilot can say... "Watch this"

If you ever hear that, bells should be going off all over the place...

I once went up with a CFI that I worked with and we were doing practice TO and LDGS ( in a 152)... ( I was brand new and he was the senior flight instructor at the school) He asked if I ever seen a "Space Shuttle Approach". Of course I hadn't. SO he said "OK, Watch This" (bells should've gone off in my new CFI head!). He set us up so we were still 700 FT AGL when were about a 1/4 mile out on final.
He put in full flaps and power idle and 48 kias (just above stall) and we sank like the space shuttle. Then he explained the thing to do is know the right height to nose down and pick up enough energy for the flare or else you'll drop right to the runway... and you can see where this went... he nosed just a bit too late and we slammed into the RW, bounced and stopped (shortest ground roll I've ever seen, about 150 FT). Felt like my spine exited my back through my butt!

The ELT didn't go off (thank goodness) and we taxied back in...

on the way, the owner came over the unicom and said "Space Shuttle Approach?" and the other CFI said "Yep", and he got made fun of ALOT when we got back in... After the gear was inspected and no damage was done, of course...

Moral of a long story... If you aren't comfortable, there a reason for it and you should listen to your instincts!
 
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He set us up so we were still 700 FT AGL when were about a 1/4 mile out on final.
He put in full flaps and power idle and 48 kias (just above stall) and we sank like the space shuttle.

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IMHO, I'd say that this type of approach is actually a pretty good technique to know. I like being able to stay high until the last minute until I'm ready to drop in. Anybody that's ever landed in Hazard, KY can appreciate this...
 
I hate flying with other CFI's!!! I just hate it! I don't understand some of these guys, they think they are perfect pilots and know it all in their C-172s! In fact, when I fly with another CFI, if I have to, I just sit quiet and let them do all the flying. I don't say anything, unless they start doing something real bravado. Then I chime in and, since I haven't said anything the whole flight, they usually listen to me. The worst is CFI's with about 300-500 hours. They've got the attitude that they can do anything.
 
My cfi track went like this:

(Dual Given:)
0-250: Scared to death
250-750: Absoltely bullet-proof
750-1000: Flawed, but confident
 
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I don't understand some of these guys, they think they are perfect pilots and know it all in their C-172s!

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Isn't that pilot in general??
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I hate flying with other CFI's!!! I just hate it!

[/ QUOTE ]My experience has been a bit different than yours. My flights with other CFIs have all been a lot of fun.
 
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(Dual Given:)
0-250: Scared to death
250-750: Absoltely bullet-proof
750-1000: Flawed, but confident

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1000-...: bored and indifferent
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He set us up so we were still 700 FT AGL when were about a 1/4 mile out on final.
He put in full flaps and power idle and 48 kias (just above stall) and we sank like the space shuttle.


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One of my CFIs actually taught short field landings this way. Do a normal full flaps approach until over the theoretical 50-foot obstacle, then chop power, nose down, and dive towards a point just a little bit before the aim point. Then flare, of course. Scared da heck out of me the first few times we did it, but I'm okay with it now. I prefer the more stablized approach though whenever possible.
 
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