Turbocharged or Naturally Aspirates Piper Arrow?

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jrh said:
Could you describe what you want to use the plane for?

Include:

Distance of average trip
Number of people on average trip
How important time is to you (how fast do you really need the plane to cruise)
Experience levels/backgrounds of the pilots

Those are the top questions that pop in to my mind when thinking of an owner's first plane.

Buying a used aircraft is not too unlike buying a used car. You don't want to buy the first car that looks good. You need to decide what you're going to do with the car first in order to narrow down your options...decide if it's going to be a daily driver or weekend cruiser, if you want to drive with your whole family or not, if you want a pickup, minivan, sports car, sedan, etc. Then you can start looking at individual models to find the perfect fit.
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We want at least a 4 seater. Our flights aren't going to be anything really extraordinary. Majority of them will be less than 500 miles each way. Speed isn't a huge deal for us, but we don't want a dog. For us the normal Arrow is probably plenty fast enough. We are >100 hour pilots, but if we are going to buy a plane the first one we get is going to be our last. We are training in the Warrior so it's not like we are going into a complex plane cold turkey. If we cannot find a better plane in the same price range of an Arrow we will just keep looking an Arrow. The Arrow is an excellent personal plane in my opinion. Why would a casual flyer need anything more than that?

But if anyone is able to suggest another plane, I'm still open minded at this point. We just don't want to spend much more than we would on an Arrow. We don't want to put in any more than $100,000 all said and done.
 
Our Mooney 231 has a similar engine (TSIO 360-LB) and I would not recommend getting a plane with a turbo if you are "getting into flying". You guys will get much more out of learning to fly in a NA airplane. No reason to ruin the joy of learning to fly with unneaded maintenance costs. I would recommend a cessna 182 personally to keep your insurance down(stiff legger) for 2 student pilots. 182's are pretty bullet proof. You can always sell it down the road when you need more plane the arrow won't out run the 182 by much and you can carry a lot in 182.
 
I agree: forget the Arrow, keep it simple with a 235hp fixed gear airplane like a 182 or Cherokee 135. Bigger useful load, better climb and roughly the same cruise speeds, better short field capability, lower insurance.
 
My vote is against the Turbo-Arrow.....Most turbo engines are much more finicky than their normally aspirated counterparts. In that category aircraft I'd probably just go for a bigger engine, like a 182 or a Cherokee 235/Dakota.

The turbo is best for high altitude take-off or if you intend to cruise high (need 0xygen), things that a normally aspirated engine just can't do.

A standard arrow can carry 4 pax as long as you don't top off the tanks (usually you don't need full tanks) and still fly for a few hours.
 
Kestrel452 said:
We want at least a 4 seater. Our flights aren't going to be anything really extraordinary. Majority of them will be less than 500 miles each way. Speed isn't a huge deal for us, but we don't want a dog. For us the normal Arrow is probably plenty fast enough. We are >100 hour pilots, but if we are going to buy a plane the first one we get is going to be our last. We are training in the Warrior so it's not like we are going into a complex plane cold turkey. If we cannot find a better plane in the same price range of an Arrow we will just keep looking an Arrow. The Arrow is an excellent personal plane in my opinion. Why would a casual flyer need anything more than that?

But if anyone is able to suggest another plane, I'm still open minded at this point. We just don't want to spend much more than we would on an Arrow. We don't want to put in any more than $100,000 all said and done.
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As has been said by many others, I just don't think an Arrow is the right fit for what you want to do.

Personally I think a 182 is a perfect plane for what you're describing, but if you really want to stick to the Cherokee line, a Cherokee 235 would be a great option as well. Everything about those aircraft are easier, simpler, and cheaper compared to an Arrow, with very little tradeoff in performance.


My other advice--utilize the services of a good aircraft broker. I might sound biased because I work for one, but honestly, it's because I work for one that I've learned how valuable they can be. Being able to bounce ideas around, get advice, have a mediator, expert help with the paperwork, etc. is easily worth the commission to a broker, especially for a first time owner like yourself. They can help you avoid many expensive pitfalls in the buying process. I compare it to using a realtor for buying a home. You can do it by yourself, but your life will be much simpler and you'll probably get a better deal by having an expert help you.

I'll PM you the name of my boss and even if you'd rather not work with him, I'm sure he'd still be happy to talk to you about some other options.
 
A regular Arrow III cannot be upgraded to match the turbo version. You either buy a turbo version or you do not. However, there are upgrades I consider necessary to the Arrow turbo version. See below.

I fly a Cessna 210 Turbo, and after moving on to it I would not consider another plane unless it is "blown".

There's nothing to "debunk". Turbocharged engines will usually not get to TBO when flown by pilots looking to get "book" speeds. I don't care what anyone says. Fly them a bit more conservatively (even with lean of peak mixture, with GAMI injectors and a proper engine analyzer) and you will get them to TBO.

The Normally aspirated Arrow II is a joke as to speed and load. Get a Mooney instead. The normally aspirated Arrow III is a bit better, but otherwise...

If one wants an Arrow the Turbo Arrow III, provided it is upgraded with a Merlyn wastegate and even an intercooler is the way to go. You can also add a Merlyn wasetgate and intercooler to one if you wish. Not cheap. Figure at least $5K for each. At the very least you will want the Merlyn "Black Magic" automatic wastegate.

If you have no other choice, then go for a Turbo Arrow IV, but the T-tail is a DOG, I mean a real joke! Don't let anyone tell you different. Try to find a turbo III.

Look, Arrows are not fast, but I think the turbo Arrow III is the best of the bunch. It doesn't have the useless T-tail, yet has the semi-tapered wing, and if it has the Merlyn wastegate it will be much easier to deal with. Having a Turbo-Plus intercooler would be an added benefit.

Ya' get up to 9K' or so with it and you'll see 160 kts or better. Not bad.

I wouldn't even consider an Arrow unless it was a turbo. You might as well get a Dakota and go as fast as a normally aspirated Arrow while hauling a lot more in the cabin. Granted, the Dakota will burn more fuel. That's why I also suggest a Mooney! Such as an F or J model.
 
At least with a turbonormalizer, this time of year with bad DAs in the "flatlands," it makes for some pretty long takeoff rolls in the Bonanza and sorry initial climb rates. Trees def get closer this time of year.
 
Kestrel:

Disregard everyone elses advice. I believe that the airplane that will fit the mission for you is a Cessna 195. It can cruise at 145 knots, 5 people, but four people very comfortably - and it will actually carry four. Also, it is so much cooler than everything else being considered. Seriously, the Arrow is kind of like the "flavored cigarette" of the airplane world...while the 195 is the man. There are four on Controller right now ranging in price from $96k to $125k for an award winner. Additionally, these airplanes will increase in value generally. Engines and parts are plentiful.

C19520N195WB.jpg
 
WacoFan said:
Kestrel:

Disregard everyone elses advice. I believe that the airplane that will fit the mission for you is a Cessna 195. It can cruise at 145 knots, 5 people, but four people very comfortably - and it will actually carry four. Also, it is so much cooler than everything else being considered. Seriously, the Arrow is kind of like the "flavored cigarette" of the airplane world...while the 195 is the man. There are four on Controller right now ranging in price from $96k to $125k for an award winner. Additionally, these airplanes will increase in value generally. Engines and parts are plentiful.

C19520N195WB.jpg
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Flavored cigarette of airplanes... LOL. It's a real neat looking plane, but tail wheels just aren't my thing. I'm guessing you own one?
 
Given the choice, I'd go with the 195... oh wait that wasn't your question ;)

The normally aspirated Arrow is the cheapest airplane from A to B that you can get for trips longer than pattern work. We have 2 arrows and 1 182 and the 182 is a hangar queen, is slower than the arrow, has maybe 100lbs more useful load (which is eaten up by the extra fuel you have to carry for the same mission), and burns 5gph more.

The Lycoming in the Arrow is damn near bulletproof. Unless I had a specific reason to own a turbocharged airplane I wouldn't go near one, and I'm not a big fan of Continental either, but keep in mind that I come from a flight school background.

I know two people who have bought 180hp Arrow 1's and gotten the Knots-2-U speed mods for them and absolutely love them, again, they have about the same useful load, and you can get them cheap, it's worth considering.

And yeah, Mooneys are fast and all but I have yet to sit in one and be comfortable.

Just my two cents ;)
 
My father owns an Arrow II. We get 135kts at 9gph on our x-countries. The aircraft is definately a three person full fuel aircraft. We were able to find the arrow for sale right after a pen yan full rebuild on the engine. The aircraft isnt a maint hog at all. The aircraft was a great investment. Its an aircraft with similar performance of a DA-40xls or C-182 with a smaller fuel burn and cheaper price to buy the aircraft.
 
Kestrel452 said:
Flavored cigarette of airplanes... LOL. It's a real neat looking plane, but tail wheels just aren't my thing. I'm guessing you own one?
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No...I don't own one. Even this is too girly for me as it is completely metal (not fabric covered), is relatively comfortable and quiet, has only two wings and also has an enclosed cabin (all the better to smoke cherry cigarettes though!). You may as well wear a dress while flying this...




(EXTREME SARCASM, both on the "wear a dress while flying this" as well as it being a pansy airplane. There is a shop not too far from KC that makes an excellent living rebuilding these for owners after vicious groundloops that tear the gearbox out of these things. Not a vicious airplane, but not something you jump into after a couple hours in a Champ either).
 
I can vouch for the Commander 112/114. I've crossed the country 3 times in a 112tc. Funny side note, the turbo version of it has the normal motor is not changed at all. the internals, crank piston etc, are identical they just tagged on a turbo.


I'll also toss in, that insurance may require an IFR rating for that turbo bird. Mountain high makes an excellent portable O2 system, but it's expensive.

An Archer would prob. do you just as well as the arrow would. If you are not planning on going further than 500 miles, you will really have to make a large difference in your cruise speed to have a large change to your flight times. It's been a really long time.. but I believe the range on the Archer might get you 500 miles non stop.. where as thee Arrow could be tight.
 
WacoFan said:
There is a shop not too far from KC that makes an excellent living rebuilding these for owners after vicious groundloops that tear the gearbox out of these things. Not a vicious airplane, but not something you jump into after a couple hours in a Champ either.
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Really? I didn't know there was a 195 shop around KC. Where is it? We had one out on the tie-down ramp at IXD a few weeks ago. Wasn't the best looking one I've seen, but it did have a Garmin 430 in it.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Really? I didn't know there was a 195 shop around KC. Where is it? We had one out on the tie-down ramp at IXD a few weeks ago. Wasn't the best looking one I've seen, but it did have a Garmin 430 in it.
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I said "close" which can be relative. It is in Perry, MO - a bit northeast of Columbia. About 3 hour drive, although if you are north you can go up around St. Joe and take 36. Barron Aviation - they have a neat website.
 
WacoFan said:
I said "close" which can be relative. It is in Perry, MO - a bit northeast of Columbia. About 3 hour drive, although if you are north you can go up around St. Joe and take 36. Barron Aviation - they have a neat website.
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Don't want to hijack the thread, but whats the lowdown on the 36? I've heard about it from a few people, but never really got a real answer on it. I'm down south of KC @ OJC, so its a long drive, but hey, a 36 is a sweet plane.
 
Bellanca Super Viking. 160 knts, fabric and wood to suit Waco (no taildragger though). Inexpensive maintenance if it's in good shape, very inexpensive to purchase, nice to fly.
 
averyrm said:
Bellanca Super Viking. 160 knts, fabric and wood to suit Waco (no taildragger though). Inexpensive maintenance if it's in good shape, very inexpensive to purchase, nice to fly.
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Giuseppe Bellanca is Italian for "really nice flying airplane". Nice addition, although I am disappointed you didn't mention the 14-19 Cruisemaster for obvious reasons.
 
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