Tuition reimbursment

surreal1221 said:
Oh - I'm loving the higher than thou attitudes.
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What is mightier than thou about what I said?

killbilly said:
What, specifically, about having a 4 year degree, makes one a better pilot, better able to conduct a flight safely? I'm not talking about getting hired - I'm talking about actually flying the plane, making decisions. I know it's a requirement of the majors, and that's fine. But unless that 4-year degree somehow enables you to fly a more efficient approach, use less fuel, make better wx decisions or any of the 100 other things that you have to do in a flight, I do not agree that you deserve more pay for it.



Raise the bar? Pilots without degrees are lowering the bar for the profession?

That's interesting. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet a large sum of money that 25-30 years ago, military-trained pilots were saying the same thing about civilian-trained pilots.

C'mon man - do you really, honestly believe what you said up there?
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I do 100%. Here's why. While you are correct that the degree does nothing when it comes to acutally flying the aircraft, it does say something about you to an airline. It proves that you know how to study. It proves that you have a work ethic and commitment to finishing a goal. The airline knows that by hiring a pilot with a college degree they are not taking the same risk on an applicant without the same degree. That doesn't mean that someone without the degree doesn't have those same qualities, but the applicant with the degree shows a proven track record. In any other career field, you can have the same job, and be going to school on the side, getting paid x amount of dollars, then after getting your degree continue with the same job, yet justify a healthy pay raise after getting it. (I am thinking of one of my good friends that is mechanical draftsman. Before getting his associates he was at like 14$ an hour. As soon as he got his associates it went to 18$, then after getting his bachelors degree he will be bumped up to 25$ or higher and hour. All for doing the exact same job.) I think this same logic should apply to commercial flying as well.
As for the military pilots vs. civilian pilots, well there will always be that argument. But there is a heck of a difference between that argument and that of the continual lowering of the bar that is happening right now with pilot pay, and minimum requirments. It's apples and oranges, it doesn't really compare to what I am saying. I just think it is too easy to become a pilot now. The easier it becomes, the easier it will be for airlines and the general public to justify lower salaries. Becoming a commercial pilot is no harder than becoming a commercial truck driver anymore. Why should we be compensated any more than that?:sarcasm:

Maximillian_Jenius said:
Whaaaat? First of all glad you don't get your way. Because that would suck for Joe Six pack who just wants to get his comm and fly on the weekends, but doesn't have a degree.
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I can see your point Max, and I agree with you. It isn't fair to the guy that wants to fly on the weekends commercially. But making it a requirement for the commercial is the only think I can think of that would stop the airlines from lowering their standards to bare minimums just to fill seats. Having that requirement would cause such a shortage that airlines would HAVE to raise pay, and raise it substantially. Otherwise there is no such thing as a pilot shortage. How can there be one when all someone has to do is go to JetU and be in the right seat of an RJ in less than a year with no degree and 250 hours in their logbook?
 
CRoper said:
I can see your point Max, and I agree with you. It isn't fair to the guy that wants to fly on the weekends commercially. But making it a requirement for the commercial is the only think I can think of that would stop the airlines from lowering their standards to bare minimums just to fill seats.
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How about for ATP? I'm still against the idea, but it's more realistic.
 
The ATP used to have a pre-requisite for "Good Moral Character". In my lifetime!
 
My point is to make it harder for the airlines to lower the bar. If the FAA made a 4 year degree (or even an associates for that matter) a prerequisite it would make it harder to lower the bar at the regionals. They would be so shorthanded they would have to raise pay right off the bat, as opposed to lowering mins to the point that they have to get the number they need.

I would rather see some king of weight limit you could stay under and not need a degree, like 12,500 lbs. That way it's not so painful for the guys starting out.

........just thinking out loud here.......LOL

BTW, it's not like any of this would ever ACTUALLY happen. No need for this to be taken too seriously.
 
I can just imagine that.

"Well, you passed the written and the checkride, but you're a real scum bag."
Hands him the pink slip.
 
Alright folks, now you know it's quite possible to disagree on the subject without (a) insulting someone or (b) having an ego bruised.

Seriously. Give it a shot.
 
CRoper said:
My point is to make it harder for the airlines to lower the bar. If the FAA made a 4 year degree (or even an associates for that matter) a prerequisite it would make it harder to lower the bar at the regionals. They would be so shorthanded they would have to raise pay right off the bat, as opposed to lowering mins to the point that they have to get the number they need.

I would rather see some king of weight limit you could stay under and not need a degree, like 12,500 lbs. That way it's not so painful for the guys starting out.

........just thinking out loud here.......LOL

BTW, it's not like any of this would ever ACTUALLY happen. No need for this to be taken too seriously.
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You must remember that a license to operate a plane is in theory no different than a license to drive a car. Having said that flying a plane does require more skill and responsibility.

Not everyone however wants to be a professional pilot. Some just want to maybe have all their ratings and again be weekend warriors. I'm all for airlines requiring a degree to get past go.

But question for you should we also require kids to graduate highschool with a diploma and not a GED to be able to get their drivers license?

Would doing that make perhaps the roads safer in general, and in turn maybe curb drinking and driving incidents and road crashes?
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
But question for you should we also require kids to graduate highschool with a diploma and not a GED to be able to get their drivers license?

Would doing that make perhaps the roads safer in general, and in turn maybe curb drinking and driving incidents and road crashes?
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I don't know that the difference between GED and diploma would make that much of a difference, but requiring one of them would raise the legal driving age to 18, which may make a difference.....I don't know...LOL
 
Y'know, I posted to this thread last night and edited again this morning and I can't seem to make the point I want to, clearly, because while I agree with CRoper to a certain degree, there's aspects of his argument that I'm just not qualified to discuss. Taking myself out of this thread.
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Which regional airlines, if any offer tuition reimbursement as a benefit?

Thanks in advance!
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I am curious too. . . .just in case I have a few nondegreed aviators wishing to continue their education. Heck, I'm working on my Master's. . .perhaps someone can help should I decide to do the PhD thing.
 
TheWife said:
Why the change of reply? Decided to tone down a little on looking like an ass? Why is any opinion that is different from yours, a higher than thou attitude? This is just a group of people with different perspectives, for the most part trying to help the aviation industry be great again. Just some different ideas of what could be done or what shouldn't be done or what could be required to change the industry from a bunch of low-time willing to fly for nothing, eager kids, to those with a drive, those who want to improve the way things are now. Not all ideas or posts that people make would actually work, but maybe some would. Nobody here is screaming "You aren't good enough to fly and I am!!!" You want to take it that way, because you want to have a problem with me and anyone else that doesn't agree with you. Get over yourself.
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Get over myself? Please. So your different opinon/idea is greater than mine? Sorry if you got your hair twisted up, but I stand by everything that I have said on this topic . . . and anything I say in the future on this topic.

My main issue with your comments earlier were that they came off as a rip towards pilots who lack the degree, but have other experience in the aviation sector. Amazingly, it appeared that someone else also saw it come off that way.

Keep the ripping up if you really feel the need to, but like I said, I'll happily defend anyone who has a family, a mortgage, changing careers, and some work experience and who also wants to fly for a living. It's possible to do, and is something that should be looked favorably of - not in a negative way.

You don't think companies should offer tuition assistance / reimbursement. I also don't think that they should - UNLESS - they have also raised base compensation. But that's not my issue here, but nevertheless

How many been there, done that, legacy pilots here on these forums said "Pay isn't everything, QOL, benefits, work rules, all add up to the full package."

Oh and I also see you have referenced eager to fly kids. How eloquent.

Generalizations work great, I love it.

Here is something to think about. Not everyone is an eager to fly kid.

The condescending tone of kid is great, and I can see how it is easily used by those who want to discourage others from pursuing a career change. Tell that to the 30-45 year old career changers, who are selling businesses to go and fly for a living.

CRoper said:
What is mightier than thou about what I said?
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This. . .

CRoper said:
However if I had my way, having the 4 year degree would be a prerequisite to receiving a commercial pilots license. That would certainly help raise the bar a bit in my estimation.
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What about the 2nd year College student who came to the school with his PP-MEL/SEL IA, 250 hours, and is about to get his Commercial license? "Nope, sorry son - the FAA (a government entity) has told us we can't allow you to get your commercial license until after you have a 4 year degree."

Yeah, that'll work out great.

Sounds like a great strategy to further reduce the number of commercially rated pilots, hence allowing more jobs for those with such a license. Good strategy. Pulling up the ladder since you already have yours. Starting out early, that usually doesn't happen until you're a 23 year 76/74/77 Captain. I'm impressed.
 
What's ridiculous is that you are completely agreeing with me, but still arguing against me. Your reading comprehension is lacking.
 
TheWife said:
What's ridiculous is that you are completely agreeing with me, but still arguing against me. Your reading comprehension is lacking.
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:yeahthat:

That's what I was trying to say before.

I like you Surreal, so don't think I'm flaming away here or anything: relax a little.

Reading through all the banter there are lots of points Michelle made that you agree with, yet argued with as if she never wrote them. You and others seem to be reading only what you want to hear.
 
surreal1221 said:
What about the 2nd year College student who came to the school with his PP-MEL/SEL IA, 250 hours, and is about to get his Commercial license? "Nope, sorry son - the FAA (a government entity) has told us we can't allow you to get your commercial license until after you have a 4 year degree."

Yeah, that'll work out great.
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I did admit that was a little harsh and suggested maybe a weight limit on the size of aircraft, instead of the actual limitation being on the commercial. Just a limitiation on the commercial license priveleges. Again, my strategy is not to reduce the number of commercially rated pilots. It is to raise the standard required to be a commercially rated pilot. By doing that, pilots collectively have more bargaining power at the table, and it limits the number of guys that are taking the airlines up on the seriously reduced mins that are out there right now. It is a way of protecting us from ourselves.

surreal1221 said:
Starting out early, that usually doesn't happen until you're a 23 year 76/74/77 Captain. I'm impressed.
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Well thanks Surreal. I guess I always have been a little ahead of the curve! :sarcasm:
 
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