TSA Endorsement

C

Chris_Ford

Well-Known Member
So I'm thumbing through 49 CFR 1552.3 (which is cited as the source for "what needs to be done before flight training") and I'm unable to find where it says an endorsement must be done..

URL: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=ca8e98bee9f342fd78d92cbedeffaf98&rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.7.14&idno=49#49:9.1.3.7.14.1.10.2

My question truly is that if one has a photocopy of passport in his/her records, is the signoff in the student's logbook necessary also.

AOPA says:
AOPA said:
An instructor must keep a copy of the documents for five years that are used to prove citizenship or make an endorsement in both the instructor's logbook, or other record used by the instructor to record flight student endorsements, and the student's logbook with the following:
Click to expand...

that AND seems that it infers the student logbook must be signed as well, but I cannot find any sort of CFR source for any of this stuff.

Anyone got any help/opinions/sources?
 
No source here (because I'm lazy), but when I looked up all those regs to get a Russian legal resistent through, I read that the logbook endorsement is not nessecary as long as you keep proof of birth/ citizenship in the school records.
 
Hmm... I coulda sworn I read that though. Where's midlifeflyer when you need him?
 
I just had this problem today actually. No b/c or passport = no flight training. I could go on a sight seeing flight but we ended up cxling the lesson... Kinda ticked me off at first but then when I saw what the wx was doing we wouldn't have flown anyway. Hopefully he can find it for the next appointment with me though.
 
I had this problem a couple weeks ago. The TSA came to our flight department to check everything out and basically grounded every flight untill everyone had a copy of thier B/C, or passport or social seurity card in thier files. And also a logbook endorsement, and then a photocopy of that endorsement in the logbook put in the files as well. It was a pian in the a** but thats what they said.
 
specialK said:
I had this problem a couple weeks ago. The TSA came to our flight department to check everything out and basically grounded every flight untill everyone had a copy of thier B/C, or passport or social seurity card in thier files. And also a logbook endorsement, and then a photocopy of that endorsement in the logbook put in the files as well. It was a pian in the a** but thats what they said.
Click to expand...

Are you serious!?! That's absolute BS red tape politico crap! Where you instruct out of? Please please please tell me it's not CHD :)
 
At my flight school we allow one flight without the TSA stuff, but they must have it and the endorsement before the second one.
 
mastermags said:
At my flight school we allow one flight without the TSA stuff, but they must have it and the endorsement before the second one.
Click to expand...

Do you allow VFR into the clouds just one time too? Not trying to be smart but isn't that about the same thing according to the FAA?

Unless that is, you are just doing a sight seeing flight and have no intentions of logging the first flight as dual/flight training.
 
Timbuff10 said:
Do you allow VFR into the clouds just one time too? Not trying to be smart but isn't that about the same thing according to the FAA?

Unless that is, you are just doing a sight seeing flight and have no intentions of logging the first flight as dual/flight training.
Click to expand...

We talked this one over with TSA - they did not consider a 'discovery flight' a training flight toward a certificate or rating. Keep in mind that any non-U.S. national with an FAA certificate can fly without proof of citizenship and receive instruction if they are not being trained toward a certificate or rating.

We also had TSA tell us that log book endorsements are not needed if the b/c or passport are on record. I still give the endorsement though.
 
I know at my flight school the DPE's are not going to give a checkride without the TSA endorsment. It is actually the shortest endorsment so I dont mind writing one.

I hate 61.39
 
aloft said:
Where can I find the text of this endorsement? Is it required for US citizens?
Click to expand...

I certify that [Pilot's Full Name] has presented me with a [birth certificate or passport] establishing that he/she is a U.S. citizen or national in accordance with 49 CFR 1552.3.
Date:
CFI #:
Signature:
 
gtpilot said:
I certify that [Pilot's Full Name] has presented me with a [birth certificate or passport] establishing that he/she is a U.S. citizen or national in accordance with 49 CFR 1552.3.
Date:
CFI #:
Signature:
Click to expand...

Can you cite where it says the endorsement is necessary, however? 1552.3 has nothing of the type, and it even says you have to clear the student with the FAA before he can start flight training :confused::confused::confused:

MidlifeFlyer, come on dude, this has your name written all over it :)
 
This, I thought, was one of the sillier things to come out. How am I, average pilot subpardinaire, supposed to identify a fake US passport? I'm assuming if someone has the ability to mastermind attacks they could get a pretty convincing fake without too much trouble?

I don't belive there is anything in the FAR's about the endorsement, it's the TSA that's requiring it. What this means is that no one knows anything about what they really want you to do. You could call the TSA and get bounced from person to person (we did) and never find anything out. It's a huge case of CYA. Photocopy the passport, do the endorsement, and hope more no more strange policies come out.

I still don't understand why a private pilot can carry a gun in a plane according to the FAR's, but according to the TSA I can't carry a leatherman in 135 single pilot ops.
 
Chris_Ford said:
Can you cite where it says the endorsement is necessary, however? 1552.3 has nothing of the type, and it even says you have to clear the student with the FAA before he can start flight training :confused::confused::confused:
Click to expand...

===================================================

14 CFR 1552.3
h) U.S. citizens and nationals and Department of Defense endorsees. A flight school must determine whether an individual is a citizen or national of the United States, or a Department of Defense endorsee, prior to providing flight training to the individual.

(1) U.S. citizens and nationals. To establish U.S. citizenship or nationality an individual must present to the flight school his or her: (examples listed)

========================================================

14CFR 1552.3
(i) Recordkeeping requirements. A flight school must—

(1) Maintain the following information for a minimum of 5 years:

(iv) For an individual who is a United States citizen or national, a copy of the information required under paragraph (h)(1) of this section.
==================================================

The endorsement was provided in a letter from TSA Assistant Administrator Chad Wolf to flight schools in 2004. It can be used as an alternative to the requirement that the records be kept for 5 years. Note, the endorsement should be made in both the instructor's logbook (or other official record) and the student's logbook. I personally do both just in case my records are somehow lost or destroyed.

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p79/300768.pdf

Edit: bah, midlife beat me there. :D
 
gtpilot said:
===================================================

14 CFR 1552.3
h) U.S. citizens and nationals and Department of Defense endorsees. A flight school must determine whether an individual is a citizen or national of the United States, or a Department of Defense endorsee, prior to providing flight training to the individual.

(1) U.S. citizens and nationals. To establish U.S. citizenship or nationality an individual must present to the flight school his or her: (examples listed)

========================================================

14CFR 1552.3
(i) Recordkeeping requirements. A flight school must—

(1) Maintain the following information for a minimum of 5 years:

(iv) For an individual who is a United States citizen or national, a copy of the information required under paragraph (h)(1) of this section.
==================================================

The endorsement was provided in a letter from TSA Assistant Administrator Chad Wolf to flight schools in 2004. It can be used as an alternative to the requirement that the records be kept for 5 years. Note, the endorsement should be made in both the instructor's logbook (or other official record) and the student's logbook. I personally do both just in case my records are somehow lost or destroyed.

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p79/300768.pdf

Edit: bah, midlife beat me there. :D
Click to expand...

Okay, so if I keep a photocopy of the passport, I do not need to do the endorsement.

Thank you for clearing it up (and you too Midlife!)
 
The TSA came and did an audit of our student files and they were happy that we had copies of all our students' proofs of citizenship in their files. No pain in the ass there.

We are allowed one discovery flight before we must have the student's proof of citizenship on record.

I don't bother with any sort of TSA endorsement in any of my students' logbooks. I'm pretty sure I don't have to do it since my flight school keeps good records.

Mike
 
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