True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,000

Adrock

Well-Known Member
Because an airspeed indicator reads dynamic pressure (proportional to kinetic energy) it reads lower than true airspeed as density of air decreases. Kinetic energy is 1/2Mass*velocity*squared. So why does the airspeed indicator not read 100knots at 22,000ft (altitude where half density occurs) when the true airspeed is 200? You have half the mass and the same acceleration which equals half as much force to act on the diaphragm in the airspeed indicator right? The actual true airspeed for 100knots indicated at 22,000” is around 140knots. What causes the gauge to be more accurate?
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

The diaphragm is connected to the static port allowing the internal pressure to decrease as altitude increases. So while there is less force acting on the diaphragm, it requires less force to compress it. The difference in IAS vs TAS comes from the difference of standard atmosphere conditions and what you are experiencing. It will not always be 40kts, if temp is lower than standard and pressure higher, the difference between true and indicated will be smaller.
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

But the static port does not compensate for loss in pressure it is only necessary to provide a figure to subtract for the pitot pressure(total pressure) inorder for the airspeed indicator to read dynamic pressure.

An airspeed indicator displays dynamic pressure. Dynamic pressure cannot be measure directly like static (measured perpendicular to flow) and total pressure (ram air such as in the pitot tube.) Dynamic pressure can be thought of as kinetic energy. Bernoulli’s principle (static pressure +dynamic pressure= total pressure,) allows the inference of Dynamic pressure as the total pressure gathered from the pitot tube minus the static port pressure.

It is often unclearly explained that the static port is needed so the airspeed indicator will remain accurate as an aircraft experiences different barometric pressures. It is sometimes suggested that the static port corrects the airspeed indication to remain more accurate while an airplane climbs and cruises at higher altitudes that have lower static pressures. This erroneous understanding claims that if the static port did not compensate for the loss of pressure/density that the airspeed indicator would read a speed much lower than actual as the airplane reached higher altitudes. The problem with this explanation is that the airspeed indicator does read a lower than true airspeed as the airplane reaches higher altitudes, inspite of the static port. This is because the airspeed indicator is not giving a ratio between kenitic energy (dynamic pressure) and static pressure, but is only reading kinetic energy (mass*acceleration, where the mass is decreasing as a plane reaches less dense air) comparing it with nothing! It is the function of the static port to provide a pressure to subtract from the total pressure reading of the pitot tube inorder to obtain some kind of reading. It is because there is no good way to measure dynamic pressure/kinetic engergy (it can only be derived) and compare it to static pressure that the total pressure most be settled for in order to obtain some kind of reading. If an instrument could measure kenitic energy and compare to static pressure there would be no error of indicated airspeed at higher altitudes.

What is the static port for then? A static port allows for an airspeed Indicator to read zero when there is no airspeed at any barometric pressure (in Death Valley of up in the Himalayas.) If a trapped, set vacuum where used instead, like in a barometer, then based on barometric conditions, an airspeed indicator could indicate airspeed with no motion of air about the airplane at all. It is correct to say the static port provides accuracy to an airspeed indicator by providing a static pressure baseline, just be careful in how you think about it!
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

So if static pressure rises or falls, it rises and falls within the value of total pressure (pitot) too! Therefore, it has no effect on balancing dynamic pressure! It is like having static pressure on both sides of the scale so that whenever you add or takeaway to one side you add and takeaway the exact amount to the other side!

Is my reasoning wrong?


I still dont get why at half the density we dont have half an airspeed reading?!!!
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

So if static pressure rises or falls, it rises and falls within the value of total pressure (pitot) too! Therefore, it has no effect on balancing dynamic pressure! It is like having static pressure on both sides of the scale so that whenever you add or takeaway to one side you add and takeaway the exact amount to the other side!

I still dont get why at half the density we dont have half an airspeed reading?!!!


Yes and the goal is not to produce an accurate reading, but a constant and usable reading. The airspeed indicator is only accurate at sea level, on a standard day. Any other time, it is simply a tool to show wing performance that also is able to show, within a reasonable range, speed through the air.

The reason it doesnt show half speed is because the instrument doesnt know its in half the density of sea level. As you stated any change to one side is reflected on the other, so the baseline is ever changing, not constant. Since it is calibrated to be accurate at sea level with a certain density and temp, any variation from that will result in an error, this is the reason for the difference of indicated vs true, not the altitude.

Im not an engineer nor am I a CFI, this is just my basic understanding from limited reading while studying for the Comm and CFI. Hopefully someone can come and give a more detailed explanation and hopefully correct any errors I have made.
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

I think what Matt was trying to say, and my understanding as well, is that the ASI is connected to Pitot (Ram) pressure, as well as static pressure, As you fly higher, and static pressure decreases, the diaphragm that meters / is impacted by static pressure affects the linkage of the ASI needle to display an "atmospherically compensated" airspeed, - not a direct, linear indication, impacted only by ram / pitot pressure. Any A&P's here that can actually explain this in a more concrete way?
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

Thanks for the post Matt13c, what you have described is a perfect explanation of the basics.
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

Until a few days, before reading “Understanding Flight” I thought that the pitot tube gathered ram- air-pressure which was the same as dynamic pressure and that the static port compensated that dynamic pressure so the airspeed could remain more accurate at lower barometric/static pressures. THIS IS NOT TRUE.

Dynamic pressure cannot be measured directly. Total pressure(-)static pressure(=)dynamic pressure. But what is confusing, is that Total pressure(what goes in the pitot tube and down the line to the one side of the ASI) INCLUDES static pressure. So whether the atmospheric pressure is bigger or smaller, it is added and subtracted to the Total pressure too—meaning static pressure is not giving the airspeed indicator a way to adjust for the decreasing mass of a volume of air. What is always left from the Total pressure (minus-)static pressure is the dynamic pressure{a.k.a. 1/2mass*(velocity*squared)} which because the mass of the air is decreasing the force is decreasing too.

So at half the force of dynamic pressure why not half the reading?
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

Yeah, but the same principle relationship of pressure applies to any altimeter.
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

Until a few days, before reading “Understanding Flight”

I think we've identified the source of your confusion. Not a well regarded source, either. You might go read Chris Carpenter (the poster on another thread's) books, Flightwise. Chris is the former head of Aerodynamics for the Royal Air Force College. John (not David) Anderson's books, more technical, but very good also.
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

Unfortunately I still haven’t got an answer. Doing these equation just confirms what I have be saying: If you are moving through air that is half as dense, you have half the dynamic pressure, which one would think is half an airspeed reading.

Has anyone read "Understanding Flight" -Anderson,Everhardt ?
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

Coanda Effect Thread---I have a hard time believing that that is the same Chris Carpenter. He makes the mistake of saying "Since the water has a velocity the pressure within the water is reduced below atmospheric (by Bernoulli's principle)" when talking about the spoon in the stream of water experiment. This is unbelievable from someone who is an expert. Just because a stream of any fluid is passing over a surface doesn’t mean its static pressure is reduced below atmospheric. It might very well be on the spoon experiment, but for other reasons. Whenever people think about the Bernoulli experiment they think of a tube with a narrowing in the middle and three pressure static pressure gauges at both wide ends and one at the narrowing. It is true in this set up that the fluid speeds up and the static pressure is reduced in the narrowing and the total pressure must remain the same but what people are forgetting is that the fluid is already moving in this scenario! There is no law that says total pressure is constant(and must equal atmospheric) if you add kinetic energy. A static port on a plane doesn’t indicate to the altimeter or vsi that there is a lowering in pressure as the plane moves faster and the stream of air over the static port increases does it?
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

Why don't you go to the flightwise forums and challenge him there? He is the real deal. Post your question and see the response!
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

Coanda Effect Thread---I have a hard time believing that that is the same Chris Carpenter. He makes the mistake of saying "Since the water has a velocity the pressure within the water is reduced below atmospheric (by Bernoulli's principle)" when talking about the spoon in the stream of water experiment. This is unbelievable from someone who is an expert.

You need to read what he wrote again, or, perhaps, gain a deeper understanding of the dynamics so it makes sense to you. The book you reference is not the ideal source to do that.
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

o.k. I appreciate your input Seagull. I am just wondering what you think? If you speed up air past a surface (so the surface is perpendicular to the direction of flow) will that surface have a lower static pressure than before?
 
Re: True Airspeed Riddle? air is half as dense at around 22,

o.k. I appreciate your input Seagull. I am just wondering what you think? If you speed up air past a surface (so the surface is perpendicular to the direction of flow) will that surface have a lower static pressure than before?

Thinking yes, blow across a piece of paper and it goes up, pressure dropped on top.
 
o.k. I appreciate your input Seagull. I am just wondering what you think? If you speed up air past a surface (so the surface is perpendicular to the direction of flow) will that surface have a lower static pressure than before?

Perpendicular, or parallel?
 
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