Training bond

[TallFlyer]

what are the contracts like at "similar" bush flying jobs up in AK?

Off the top of my head I can't think of a single operator that has any kind of a contract or bond for a 206/207 in AK, although ppragman is much more in tune with that world than I am these days. A three year contract is plain ridiculous.

What's your total time and 206 time these days? If you're near 1K TT with the right to work in the states you should make your way up there if you want to fly bush type flying.

 

[TallFlyer]

It`s based on local wages, there are almost no expat pilots. 400 USDs fixed a month plus 11 USD/fligth hour, that goes to 18USDs after the first year, currently average hours are 80-90/pilot, it comes with health insurance, taxes paid for by the company and housing allowance. Cost of life is about 1/3 then in the US

By comparison, my old job in JNU currently pays $1,000 a month, plus $30/hour, plus $200/month retention bonus at the end of the season. I may be a little different now as they're under new ownership, but that's the ballpark numbers.

207s in western AK ballpark at $200/day.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I don't care about the airplane, and I would love to fly a 206 in AK.

The problem is that there is no way that it costs anywhere near 12K to teach an experienced pilot how to fly a 206, even in Alaska. Even with 100 hours of OJT there is no way that the training costs are over 3K.

IMHO a training contract should be for 12 months and recoup about 50% of the direct training costs. Absolutely never should one be for more than 24 months and the total direct training costs. If they can't show you the training budjet when they are requiring you to sign a contract, then you need to walk away.

FYI the contract at my old company for training in a 208 was 3500 if you left before 12 months. The direct cost for training was 5,000 for a sharp pilot, and about 7500 for a guy who needed a little help.

I wish I would have seen a post like this before I went to where I'm at now.

 

[USMCmech]

I wish I would have seen a post like this before I went to where I'm at now.

Personally I don't approve of training contracts at all.

However I can understand the position of company management. If they are going to invest money in training a pilot, they should be able to expect a reasonable return on that investment.

 

[TallFlyer]

Personally I don't approve of training contracts at all.

However I can understand the position of company management. If they are going to invest money in training a pilot, they should be able to expect a reasonable return on that investment.

Or they can structure their compensation, benefits, and pilot QOL to retain people.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Personally I don't approve of training contracts at all.

Likewise. I will do whatever I can to not get under another one. Should I have to get under one, no more than 1 year.

In certain circumstances, I think they are fair. Like, airline hires zero time personnel and trains them for the entire cost of all the ratings.

 

[tiredcfi]

However I can understand the position of company management. If they are going to invest money in training a pilot, they should be able to expect a reasonable return on that investment.

Yea, I believe that 12 months pro-rated is about as fair as it gets though.

 

[dasleben]

swisspilot

Before you try to justify signing a training contract for 3 years and $12,000 on a C206, I'm currently in the middle of my 4th initial training program at an air carrier. I've had very expensive training provided at each of them, including a PIC type on a 757/767 at my last carrier. Only once was I under any sort of training agreement, and that was Cape Air's non-monetary gentleman's agreement, wherein you were asked to stay 12 months if they provided you an ATP. If you broke it, there were no monetary penalties; you were simply not eligible for rehire.

 

[ppragman]

Off the top of my head I can't think of a single operator that has any kind of a contract or bond for a 206/207 in AK, although ppragman is much more in tune with that world than I am these days. A three year contract is plain ridiculous.

What's your total time and 206 time these days? If you're near 1K TT with the right to work in the states you should make your way up there if you want to fly bush type flying.

You are correct, no place that I know of has a bond in the 206/207 up north, and if they did, it'd be f-ing ridiculous. If you fly 5 hours in the airplane before being checked out (which is an alarmingly long time to fly either of those airplanes before being signed off) you'd cost the operate around $1500 to $2000 at absolute most - that's including all of the other training you did (ground school, indoc, etc.).

Remember, if they have a training agreement, there's a reason. Either the company treats it's people like garbage, the pay sucks, or they ask you to do things that aren't strictly speaking legit. These companies were unwilling to change their practices in order to retain people, and instead have decided it's more appropriate to threaten people who don't find the job to their liking, and no job is ever what it appears. I'll never work under a training agreement ever again, and I won't recommend it to anyone. A gentleman's agreement of "Can you stay for at least a year," is perfectly acceptable, a "if you leave before a year you'd better have a lawyer," is not.

By comparison, my old job in JNU currently pays $1,000 a month, plus $30/hour, plus $200/month retention bonus at the end of the season. I may be a little different now as they're under new ownership, but that's the ballpark numbers.

207s in western AK ballpark at $200/day.

Pay went down :-(

 

[swisspilot]

Off the top of my head I can't think of a single operator that has any kind of a contract or bond for a 206/207 in AK, although ppragman is much more in tune with that world than I am these days. A three year contract is plain ridiculous.

What's your total time and 206 time these days? If you're near 1K TT with the right to work in the states you should make your way up there if you want to fly bush type flying.

What`s the cost of life up in Alaska?

The good thing about this place is that if you stay within the country borders you go a long way with that money, on top of everything there is no need to own a car.

I was making 250 USDs a day in the South Pacific to fly a 206 at one point but cost of life was pretty steep.

 

[swisspilot]

Schedule is 6 days on, 1 day off, 28 days vacation/year, 6 days sick leave/year

As it is VFR Day only, you can expect to fly between 0730 and 1830, even if I have never seen any airplane heading into the bush before 0900 as most of the forest is covered in fog until then, and by 1700 most people are home but that`s what stated in the contract.

Been looking at similar position in Africa, and the pay seems actually lower, at a 350-400 hours a year of flight time vs 1000 most pilots get here.

 

[swisspilot]

In certain circumstances, I think they are fair. Like, airline hires zero time personnel and trains them for the entire cost of all the ratings.

That`s a bit how it is here, maybe not zero time to hero but, as most fresh CPLs don`t meet the local regulation in terms of hours required to fly commercially VFR day, company gives you the hours to get to 500TT, this is not my case but the contracts are really similar.

Did some calculations and the revenue thye loose on that seat they can`t sell while I`m doing the 100 hours PICUS you get around those numbers, still not fair as in some ways you will give the company their money back as you work for them..

 

[swisspilot]

If you fly 5 hours in the airplane before being checked out (which is an alarmingly long time to fly either of those airplanes before being signed off) you'd cost the operate around $1500 to $2000 at absolute most - that's including all of the other training you did (ground school, indoc, etc.).(

Training costs here are a lot higher, operating cost of a 206 alone is probably twice as much, the hours and ck out requirements are maybe more then what most pilots would need, but that`s what the regs say.

 

[ppragman]

Training costs here are a lot higher, operating cost of a 206 alone is probably twice as much, the hours and ck out requirements are maybe more then what most pilots would need, but that`s what the regs say.

Who gives a damn, if they have to hold you under threat of legal action - it's not a place you want to work.

 

[Okie_Pilot]

Yeah..... No.

 

[TallFlyer]

What`s the cost of life up in Alaska?

Not really relevant as many guys commute from the lower 48. Every 207 operator I can think of in western AK provides housing in the bush.

The good thing about this place is that if you stay within the country borders you go a long way with that money, on top of everything there is no need to own a car.

Or you could work half the month in AK, make a lot more money, and travel wherever you want two weeks a month. Dear God in heaven I miss that lifestyle sometimes.....

 

[Krieger]

Well the main reason for it is that 90% of all the flying in the country is Bush Flying, training for this type of flying is not easy or cheap

That's the cost of doing business. It's not your burden. If they need pilots like you say I would try to negotiate a MUCH MUCH better deal.

It sounds like you may have already made your choice. Have fun and be safe!

 

[highalt41]

Seems like u have ur mind made up and know what ur going to do, why ask?

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

How enforceable are they in whatever country you are in? Can you prove the training doesn't actually cost what they make it out to be?

 

[swisspilot]

Seems like u have ur mind made up and know what ur going to do, why ask?

Not at all, most of the explanations given by me is what the company and other pilots gave me...I moved there for an other job back in October which turned out to be a huge bust, for me and two other expat pilots, it cost me some money already and I was trying to get myself to take this job in order to make the whole trip less usless...

Maybe at some point I was leaning towards getting this job, no, partially after some reflections made from who has more experience then me made me change my point of view..also have little experience with contracts

the last 206 I flew it was and hand shake type of contract, got paid full salary on the first day of training, but on the long run not having a strict contract that stated everything was bad for me