Traffic 10' oclock etc....

popaviator

Well-Known Member
I probably should have done a search before asking this, but it's 2 am.....anyways.... What are the parameters for giving a traffic alert to a pilot. Sometimes I'll see guys fly by and get a report from ATC, other times....nada. Thanks
 
Time permitting if you're VFR. Not 100% sure for IFR, but I have never had a controller missed any traffic alert for 121 flying.
 
Depends if you are talking about a Traffic call or a Traffic alert, they are two separate things essentially.

Traffic alert-

Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the
aircraft is in a position/altitude which, in your
judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain,

obstructions, or other aircraft.

Traffic call-

Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace
or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic
advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your
frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity
may diminish to less than the applicable separation
minima. Where no separation minima applies, such
as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C
airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those
aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment

their proximity warrants it.
Also with Merging Target procedures we are required in certain cases to issue traffic calls when targets (RADAR Targets) appear likely to merge and the aircraft are only separated by the minimum allowed (ie 1000 ft)

A traffic alert will ALways be proceeded with the Phrase "Traffic Alert"

Example "TRAFFIC ALERT, November-Four-Golf-Alpha, TRAFFIC twelve o'clock, less than a mile, opposite direction, Advise you turn right heading Three-Six-Zero IMMEDIATELY."

A traffic call is slightly more casual.

"November-Four-Golf-Alpha, traffic two o'clock, 6 miles, southbound, converging, Dash-Eight, Four thousand descending to Three Thousand."
 
Depends if you are talking about a Traffic call or a Traffic alert, they are two separate things essentially.

Traffic alert-


Traffic call-

Also with Merging Target procedures we are required in certain cases to issue traffic calls when targets (RADAR Targets) appear likely to merge and the aircraft are only separated by the minimum allowed (ie 1000 ft)

A traffic alert will ALways be proceeded with the Phrase "Traffic Alert"

Example "TRAFFIC ALERT, November-Four-Golf-Aplha, TRAFFIC twelve o'clock, less than a mile, oposite direction, Advise you turn right heading Three-Six-Zero IMMEDIATELY."

A traffic call is slightly more casual.

"November-Four-Golf-Alpha, traffic two o'clock, 6 miles, southbound, converging, Dash-Eight, Four thousand descending to Three Thousand."


Thanks! :rawk: I guess what I was referring to was a traffic call then
 
Thanks! :rawk: I guess what I was referring to was a traffic call then

You may have traffic in your vicinity that we determine will be no factor even if it seems close from your perspective. Projected flight paths will never intersect and both are on freq. If we are certain its no factor you will most likely not here a traffic call. Dont hesitate to ask about it though, Id gladly explain why I didnt issue it. I may respond, traffic was thru your altitude and climbing etc. This is why we often verify altitudes to check your equipment.
 
You may have traffic in your vicinity that we determine will be no factor even if it seems close from your perspective. Projected flight paths will never intersect and both are on freq. If we are certain its no factor you will most likely not here a traffic call. Dont hesitate to ask about it though, Id gladly explain why I didnt issue it. I may respond, traffic was thru your altitude and climbing etc. This is why we often verify altitudes to check your equipment.


check my equipment? but i have a garmin mode-s xpndr, if theres an error it must be with yalls equipment. ;)

edit: and oh yeah, im NEVER off altitude. :)
 
check my equipment? but i have a garmin mode-s xpndr, if theres an error it must be with yalls equipment. ;)

edit: and oh yeah, im NEVER off altitude. :)

We are required to verify altitudes. Upon departure or radar contact airborne. We simply dont have time to analyze every equipment suffix for every aircraft. The suffix on your flight plan may indeed be wrong as well. Call it what you want "check your equipment, check ours...." its all about being certain everything is correctly displayed.
 
I enjoyed getting the FA-18 call out yesterday and I heard CTR talking to other pilots about it the entire time. Then he calls it less than 1 mile at 1 o'clock. There it is about 1,000 feet above me. The controller was having trouble keeping up with the altitude readout. Apparently an FA-18 can make the altitude indicate XXX.
 
I enjoyed getting the FA-18 call out yesterday and I heard CTR talking to other pilots about it the entire time. Then he calls it less than 1 mile at 1 o'clock. There it is about 1,000 feet above me. The controller was having trouble keeping up with the altitude readout. Apparently an FA-18 can make the altitude indicate XXX.

I always like calling traffic to fighter aircraft. You guys on VHF can't hear it but it's pretty funny when we get done calling traffic and the fighter responds in a deep, cool fighter-pilot voice, "...radar contact."
 
In a similar vein, what are the parameters for allowing visual separation? I can't figure it out from what I've seen. Generally speaking, I'm cruising along in the mid-teens just fast enough to be a problem, but too slow to sequence with the jets coming out of a major airport. Sometimes I'll call "in sight" and they'll allow me to maintain visual and let the guys climb on up, sometimes they hold them down until they're past me. Is it just a function of how "trustworthy" I sound? ;)
 
In a similar vein, what are the parameters for allowing visual separation? I can't figure it out from what I've seen. Generally speaking, I'm cruising along in the mid-teens just fast enough to be a problem, but too slow to sequence with the jets coming out of a major airport. Sometimes I'll call "in sight" and they'll allow me to maintain visual and let the guys climb on up, sometimes they hold them down until they're past me. Is it just a function of how "trustworthy" I sound? ;)

IFR? VFR? Class of airspace?.......Many variables. My separation responsibility varies greatly depending on the circumstance. We sometimes just provide the separation to remove the need for multiple traffic calls. May seem restrictive to you, but we can concentrate on more pressing traffic if needed. If you feel inconvenienced, cancel.
 
In a similar vein, what are the parameters for allowing visual separation? I can't figure it out from what I've seen. Generally speaking, I'm cruising along in the mid-teens just fast enough to be a problem, but too slow to sequence with the jets coming out of a major airport. Sometimes I'll call "in sight" and they'll allow me to maintain visual and let the guys climb on up, sometimes they hold them down until they're past me. Is it just a function of how "trustworthy" I sound? ;)

Don't expect to be issued visual separation in centers. The FAA has really cracked down on the application of the procedure and even if it's being used with there is no ambiguity among the parties involved a controller can have a deal for one insignificant elemant being omitted or the procedure being misapplied. For example, a controller had a deal recently because he didn't say the phrase, "targets appear likely to converge." As a result, most center controllers refuse to use it.
 
In a similar vein, what are the parameters for allowing visual separation? I can't figure it out from what I've seen. Generally speaking, I'm cruising along in the mid-teens just fast enough to be a problem, but too slow to sequence with the jets coming out of a major airport. Sometimes I'll call "in sight" and they'll allow me to maintain visual and let the guys climb on up, sometimes they hold them down until they're past me. Is it just a function of how "trustworthy" I sound? ;)


Personally I only use it if I can reasonably guarantee you won't won't actually have to manuever to maintain separation. I don't want any aircraft to have to go into a break because I ran another aircraft right at them while applying visual separation. One question I have always had and I have never had answered is what does the requirement to maintain "visual separation" authorize the pilot to do? Does it allow you to turn/climb/descend to avoid the traffic. I am not sure so I will only use it when I know that won't be a factor and the goal is to not worry about maintaining approved separation(IE 3 miles/1000ft).

I has nothing to do with how trustworthing you sound. Well unless you sound like a complete idiot in which case I may hesitate.:)
 
In a similar vein, what are the parameters for allowing visual separation? I can't figure it out from what I've seen. Generally speaking, I'm cruising along in the mid-teens just fast enough to be a problem, but too slow to sequence with the jets coming out of a major airport. Sometimes I'll call "in sight" and they'll allow me to maintain visual and let the guys climb on up, sometimes they hold them down until they're past me. Is it just a function of how "trustworthy" I sound? ;)


From the book

7-2-1. VISUAL SEPARATION
Aircraft may be separated by visual means, as provided in this paragraph, when other approved separation is assured before and after the application of visual separation. To ensure that other separation will exist, consider aircraft performance, wake turbulence, closure rate, routes of flight, and known weather conditions. Reported weather conditions must allow the aircraft to remain within sight until other separation exists. Do not apply visual separation between successive departures when departure routes and/or aircraft performance preclude maintaining separation.
<font face="Arial"><i><font size="-2">REFERENCE-
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-20, Wake Turbulence Cautionary Advisories.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-21, Traffic Advisories.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 3-1-9, Use of Tower Radar Displays.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5-9-5, Approach Separation Responsibility.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-4-1, Visual Approach.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach.
FAAO JO 7110.65, P
 
Personally I only use it if I can reasonably guarantee you won't won't actually have to manuever to maintain separation. I don't want any aircraft to have to go into a break because I ran another aircraft right at them while applying visual separation. One question I have always had and I have never had answered is what does the requirement to maintain "visual separation" authorize the pilot to do? Does it allow you to turn/climb/descend to avoid the traffic. I am not sure so I will only use it when I know that won't be a factor and the goal is to not worry about maintaining approved separation(IE 3 miles/1000ft).

I has nothing to do with how trustworthing you sound. Well unless you sound like a complete idiot in which case I may hesitate.:)

Are you serious????? You are not familiar with what visual separation means? Im truly scared at the thought of anyone not knowing their job. Please ask someone or better yet, hit the books.

It has nothing to do with how trustworthing you sound. Well unless you sound like a complete idiot in which case I may hesitate
 
One question I have always had and I have never had answered is what does the requirement to maintain "visual separation" authorize the pilot to do? Does it allow you to turn/climb/descend to avoid the traffic. I am not sure so I will only use it when I know that won't be a factor and the goal is to not worry about maintaining approved separation(IE 3 miles/1000ft).

You really should be asking your trainer these questions. Here are the pilot's procedures for Visual Separation, from the AIM:

4-4-14. Visual Separation
a. Visual separation is a means employed by ATC to separate aircraft in terminal areas and en route airspace in the NAS. There are two methods employed to effect this separation:

2. A pilot sees the other aircraft involved and upon instructions from the controller provides separation by maneuvering the aircraft to avoid it. When pilots accept responsibility to maintain visual separation, they must maintain constant visual surveillance and not pass the other aircraft until it is no longer a factor.

NOTE-
Traffic is no longer a factor when during approach phase the other aircraft is in the landing phase of flight or executes a missed approach; and during departure or en route, when the other aircraft turns away or is on a diverging course.

b. A pilot's acceptance of instructions to follow another aircraft or provide visual separation from it is an acknowledgment that the pilot will maneuver the aircraft as necessary to avoid the other aircraft or to maintain in-trail separation. In operations conducted behind heavy jet aircraft, it is also an acknowledgment that the pilot accepts the responsibility for wake turbulence separation.
 
4-4-14. Visual Separation
a. Visual separation is a means employed by ATC to separate aircraft in terminal areas and en route airspace in the NAS. There are two methods employed to effect this separation:

2. A pilot sees the other aircraft involved and upon instructions from the controller provides separation by maneuvering the aircraft to avoid it. When pilots accept responsibility to maintain visual separation, they must maintain constant visual surveillance and not pass the other aircraft until it is no longer a factor.

b. A pilot's acceptance of instructions to follow another aircraft or provide visual separation from it is an acknowledgment that the pilot will maneuver the aircraft as necessary to avoid the other aircraft or to maintain in-trail separation. In operations conducted behind heavy jet aircraft, it is also an acknowledgment that the pilot accepts the responsibility for wake turbulence separation.

I would say that is probably the least understood thing within the AIM.
 
traffic calls are a personal guesstimate. if u feel the aircraft are gonna be a conflict, then issue a traffic advisory.

i personally use the theory of "if they will see each other", then issue traffic. it's not a hard and fast rule. if 2 aircraft are VFR and you providing VFR traffic advisories, there is not "within XX amount of miles or XXX amount of feet" rule. it's all subjective. depends on the controller and workload. if u hear a controller talking his a$$ off, expect to get close to an aircraft without a traffic call. you are VFR after all. VFR traffic advisories are "workload permitting".

if your VFR...do your job of "see and avoid", even if your getting VFR flight following. if you IFR...expect to have IFR separation with little traffic advisories, unless the controller wants to use visual separation.
 
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