Tough lesson on density altitude...crash video

bunk22

bunk22

Well-Known Member
Hopefully not a repost. The video was kept from public viewing for 20 years. Bad that the two men flying the L-19 died but good from a learning perspective. Low powered, non turbo or superchared aircraft, flying up high in the mountines. Easy to sit back and armchair QB this one but it looks like he unloaded and loaded the plane at least twice. Maybe if he had rolled wings level, broke the stall, got the power on he could have flown out or kept it from flipping, maybe entering the tree's wings level . At my old squadron, we lost a pilot with over 1000 military flight hours and hundreds of civilian hours, in his RG Cessna up in the mountains. He stalled out with his dad and brother onboard, killing all three on impact. He wasn't prepared for the mountain flying.

In Navy training, we allow the aircraft to flip at altitude to demo what can happen to the student. We practice with two IP's, departing the aircraft from various stalls, as part of our ITU and bi-yearly quals. We see what it does after it flips then recovery but more importantly, we try to recover before it flips. Navy pilots still die from similar mishaps as an IP and stud did in 06, stalling the aircraft at 600', it flipped on them, the IP got it back over but his rate decent was too great, impacting the ground killing them instantly.

The Video, about 6 minutes long:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=316_1249535759

The story here:

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/l-19_crash_documents.htm
 
Wow. Makes me cringe. He even had plenty of room to turn around, had he not flown straight up the canyon--a common mistake to make. He cut his available turning space in half. If he'd hugged the ridge on the right side of the frame he could have entered a gentle turn to the left, towards the center of the canyon, towards lower terrain, and made it around I bet.

Thanks for posting this. Very educational, indeed.
 
That is tough to watch. Looks like his bank angle was about 50* at one point. Near the end , he could have maybe recovered and crashed into the trees without stalling. Pretty eye opening if you have never flown around mountains. Any idea what the altitude is in that area?
 
I think this would be a good video to show students why you don't take a 150 into the mountains. It's kinda creepy to watch.

Bunk, I bet ya he already had everything in (power) and it just didn't have the umph it needed. Rolling wings level may have not even fixed it with the DA involved, but who knows. One of the office girls at work husband used to live near the end of the runway at Big Bear. He is afriad of airplanes now because of all the people that leave the low lands with full fuel and 4 people in a 172, come up for lunch, load the airplane with firewood for the trip home, and never clear the end of the runway.
 
mshunter said:
I think this would be a good video to show students why you don't take a 150 into the mountains. It's kinda creepy to watch.

Bunk, I bet ya he already had everything in (power) and it just didn't have the umph it needed. Rolling wings level may have not even fixed it with the DA involved, but who knows. One of the office girls at work husband used to live near the end of the runway at Big Bear. He is afriad of airplanes now because of all the people that leave the low lands with full fuel and 4 people in a 172, come up for lunch, load the airplane with firewood for the trip home, and never clear the end of the runway.
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The bank that he was putting in raised the load factor significantly, which caused the stall. If he was able to level the wings, he could have maybe recovered enough to set it down in the tree a little more gently. By the time he entered the stall, he was pretty much hosed, however.
 
mshunter said:
I think this would be a good video to show students why you don't take a 150 into the mountains.
Click to expand...

No, it's a good video to prove why a person should get some training with pilots who have flown the mountains before doing it on their own.

A plane's horsepower is a relatively minor part of the equation to operating in mountainous terrain safely. A pilot who doesn't know what he's doing can kill himself in a 182, while an experienced mountain pilot can make an Aeronca Champ sing.

That's because Mother Nature is infinitely more powerful than either plane. Power will not pull you out of a 2000 fpm downdraft no matter how much power you have. Power will not decrease your turning radius in a narrow canyon. Power will not help you avoid obstacles during a twisting, turning approach to a one-way airstrip. A pilot has to learn how to handle those situations using elegant technique, not brute force. That's what mountain flying is about.
 
mojo6911 said:
The bank that he was putting in raised the load factor significantly, which caused the stall. If he was able to level the wings, he could have maybe recovered enough to set it down in the tree a little more gently. By the time he entered the stall, he was pretty much hosed, however.
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It wasn't the bank angle alone, it was the high bank angle and needing to simultaneously maintain altitude that got him. Nothing wrong with cranking in a 45 degree bank if you can accept a loss of altitude.

Honestly, as soon as I saw him begin his turn to the right, I could tell he was screwed. His only options with such a tight space were to crank the turn around, this increasing his load factor and stalling, or reducing the bank angle and flying straight in to the side of a relatively steep hill, which I think would also have been fatal.

It's just a poor setup in general. As I said in my first post, he should have been hugging one side or the other as he flew up the canyon, then turned towards the center into wide open, lower terrain.
 
jrh said:
No, it's a good video to prove why a person should get some training with pilots who have flown the mountains before doing it on their own.
A plane's horsepower is a relatively minor part of the equation to operating in mountainous terrain safely. A pilot who doesn't know what he's doing can kill himself in a 182, while an experienced mountain pilot can make an Aeronca Champ sing.

That's because Mother Nature is infinitely more powerful than either plane. Power will not pull you out of a 2000 fpm downdraft no matter how much power you have. Power will not decrease your turning radius in a narrow canyon. Power will not help you avoid obstacles during a twisting, turning approach to a one-way airstrip. A pilot has to learn how to handle those situations using elegant technique, not brute force. That's what mountain flying is about.
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That doesn't necessarily mean with an instructor either. I've seen schools (including some up here) that offer "mountain checkouts." They then proceed to send you up into the hills with a 300TT pilot to get the hang of things. Wrong. Find the most grizzled, bearded, death defying SOB on the field, and go up with him. Trade him a case of beer for it or something, but take lessons from everyone.
 
ppragman said:
That doesn't necessarily mean with an instructor either. I've seen schools (including some up here) that offer "mountain checkouts." They then proceed to send you up into the hills with a 300TT pilot to get the hang of things. Wrong. Find the most grizzled, bearded, death defying SOB on the field, and go up with him. Trade him a case of beer for it or something, but take lessons from everyone.
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:yeahthat:

That's why I worded my original post with "pilot" rather than "instructor" ;)
 
Definetly hard to watch. I do alot of low-level mountain stuff here in Idaho for Fish & Game and that could very easily be me if I'm not attentive.
 
I ran across this yesterday on another forum. I am just yelling TURN TURN TURN in my head as he goes deeper and deeper into the valley. =[
 
mojo6911 said:
That is tough to watch. Looks like his bank angle was about 50* at one point. Near the end , he could have maybe recovered and crashed into the trees without stalling. Pretty eye opening if you have never flown around mountains. Any idea what the altitude is in that area?
Click to expand...

Just last month I did mountain training throughout CO. We started at Jeffco and the first part of the route took us over Granby. There was a pass we climbed up to 11 or 12K to get over but the route from Jeffco to Granby was the least challenging part of the training and I don't think it was that bad through there. Granted, we were in a 300hp 206. I don't think I would want to attempt that route on a warm day with a lesser a/c.
 
Yes. So many mistakes that should have been avoided and completely bypassed this terrible ending.:(

tlewis95 said:
I ran across this yesterday on another forum. I am just yelling TURN TURN TURN in my head as he goes deeper and deeper into the valley. =[
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Stomp16 said:
Just last month I did mountain training throughout CO. We started at Jeffco and the first part of the route took us over Granby. There was a pass we climbed up to 11 or 12K to get over but the route from Jeffco to Granby was the least challenging part of the training and I don't think it was that bad through there. Granted, we were in a 300hp 206. I don't think I would want to attempt that route on a warm day with a lesser a/c.
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Agreed, that was a great experience. Looks like the plane just didnt want to climb anymore, downdraft is also possible depending if the wind was coming over that ridge, bank angle didnt help either, nor did being that close to the ground before trying to turn downhill.

As the OP said, easy to armchair QB this, great learning tool but unfortunate like most aviation lessons.
 
I remember seeing this back in 97 for the first time. My instructor made me watch the "VHS" he had of this. He wanted me to understand what could happen if things went wrong being behind the power curve. He called it "Hang on Ronny". This is the first I have seen it since. I have the same feeling I had back then. Always strange hearing and seeing someones last moments in this world. Thanks for finding.
 
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