To and From practice area

[NJA_Capt]

I was shown by a DE how with the throttle stuck full on you can pitch the airplane up to Vfe and put full flaps in and then it will slow down for you.

I don't know about that Mike. I think that is a very large can-of-worms. What type of airplane? Single or twin? Takeoff, landing or cruise? If you are at 120kts it might work, at 250kts forget it. I think it should be preceded with a great deal of unusual attitude recoveries.

I know in my plane it would probably take a 60+ degree climb to get it to flap speed. Does the plane pitch up or down with full flaps? Is it going to pitch down or over on its back? Or is it going to stall because the speed decayed before we could accelerate?

I say fly the way we train. We train for power off landings. In a single engine: circle the airport/enter downwind, shut down the engine (with the mixture) and glide it in like you have already practiced.

In a twin, regulate your speed by retarding the "responsive" engine. Once configured and stabilized, shut down the "unresponsive" engine and land with the "responsive" engine.

 

[Van_Hoolio]

It was in a 172. It worked.


Mike

 

[TaterSalad]

Oh sorry, the DE applied full power on downwind and used the flaps to slow it down so you could fly the rest of the pattern and towards the end of the runway at a reasonable rate (and with a shload of nose down trim!). The DE suggested pulling the mixture when the field is made, but I'd lean toward using the mags to kill the engine so you might have a better shot of getting the engine back if you wanted it. I could be wrong on that one though.


Mike

Cutting the mags off or the mixture both accomplish the same thing, in slightly different ways. 3 things needed for combustion; fuel, spark, air. If you cut the mags, you take away spark.........cut the mixture and you take away fuel. So long as the prop is still windmilling, you've got the air being drawn into the cylinders. It's been my experience that someone who says they wouldn't use the mixture, doesn't completely understand how an aircraft engine works. My point in this discussion is to say cutting either one gives you the same chance of getting the engine back should you need it (and either one has, in my opinion, the same potential for failure). Mixture back in, fuel is back in the picture with the already occurring spark and air. Mags back in, spark is back with occurring fuel and air. Personally, I'd be more comfortable using the mixture to cut the engine, though I have no definitive answer to why. Also, keep in mind, on short final (if you're on speed, at least in typical training planes) the prop will quit windmilling, albeit not immediately, so this may be a moot discussion. See below how I know this, but once the mixture's out, you've got about 15-20 secs before the prop quits.

On an aside, this is actually something I do with my students at least once.........simulated engine failure with throttle to idle, once I *know* we'll make the runway (and there's not another airplane *anywhere* near the runway that may pull out in front of us, etc), I pull the mixture and let the engine completely stop. Just one way I make my training as realistic (yet balancing experience gained against safety) as possible. They may have done 100 sim engine failure landings, but every time I do this and they land with a stopped prop and silence they always comment on how different it actually is, and thank me for showing them what it would really be like, should it actually happen someday.

And before anyone gives me grief about this, I'll say this. I think anyone with a CFI certificate (perhaps with a couple hundred hrs dual given, so they have some experience/judgement seeing how students react?) should be competent enough to evaluate the situation in terms of potential gotchas (ie: traffic holding short), and if necessary be able to recognize a bad situation before it gets bad and take control to get the plane down safely.

Back to the original topic, if anyone can give me a reason the mags may be a better choice than the mixture (ie: one could fail more readily and WHY that would happen), I'm not above changing my ways.

 

[BrettInLJ]

"On an aside, this is actually something I do with my students at least once.........simulated engine failure with throttle to idle, once I *know* we'll make the runway (and there's not another airplane *anywhere* near the runway that may pull out in front of us, etc), I pull the mixture and let the engine completely stop. Just one way I make my training as realistic (yet balancing experience gained against safety) as possible. They may have done 100 sim engine failure landings, but every time I do this and they land with a stopped prop and silence they always comment on how different it actually is, and thank me for showing them what it would really be like, should it actually happen someday. "

I'm all for realistic training, but this is the first time I've ever heard of someone cutting the engine for real in a single for training purposes. Let me give you a scenario. Lets say you do this when everything is looking good, you know the student makes good landings, and at the last second he or she has a brain fart and lets the nose down causing the nose wheel to bounce first. Normally you would want to go around with full power to preclude the possibility of porpiosing (sp). I know the chances of this may be low and most of the time you could recover from the situation and land, but you are dealing with a student pilot. Just something to think about since you would never want to have to explain something like that to the FAA. I'm not saying that realistic training is bad, just playing devils advocate.

 

[NJA_Capt]

I'm not saying that realistic training is bad, just playing devils advocate.

I was trying to hold my tongue, but I gotta agree with you (sorry Tater). Once you pull that mixture you are no longer simulating an emergency, you are creating an emergency. It also conveniently fits into 91.13.

To many "what ifs" to be doing this. It's just not worth it.


PS....Hey TaterSalad, You gonna be around this week?

 

[TaterSalad]

I was trying to hold my tongue, but I gotta agree with you (sorry Tater). Once you pull that mixture you are no longer simulating an emergency, you are creating an emergency. It also conveniently fits into 91.13.

To many "what ifs" to be doing this. It's just not worth it.


PS....Hey TaterSalad, You gonna be around this week?

Both of the posts above are valuable advice, and I see your points.

To answer, I'll be around all week, though my schedule is almost solid 9-6 or later each day, so while I'll be around the airport, it'll probably be up flying. You planning on stopping by again? If so, let me know when, and I'll do my best to open up my schedule for a little bit to chat.

 

[jrh]

I was trying to hold my tongue, but I gotta agree with you (sorry Tater). Once you pull that mixture you are no longer simulating an emergency, you are creating an emergency. It also conveniently fits into 91.13.

To many "what ifs" to be doing this. It's just not worth it.

How are glider pilots trained? They don't have the option to go around, but they consider their training operations safe.

That's all Tater is doing. He knows they can make the field, then they become a glider.

I'm just playing devil's advocate for Tater's side.

I don't know what side I would go with on this issue. I've never pulled the mixture in a single, but I've never really thought about it before. I definitely don't believe in pulling the mixture when not in gliding range of an airport...but if you can make the airport...I don't know.

It's 3:15 A.M. I'm going to bed.

 

[NJA_Capt]

How are glider pilots trained? They don't have the option to go around, but they consider their training operations safe.

Apples and oranges though. Gliders are made to glide. That's why their wings are 20 feet longer than a C172.

You don't practice (key word) autorotations in a helicopter with the engine turned off either. But that's apples and oranges too.

 

[jrh]

Apples and oranges though. Gliders are made to glide. That's why their wings are 20 feet longer than a C172.

I don't think it's apples and oranges at all.

Is the danger that the Cessna won't make the field? I don't see that happening...the CFI ought to know that the field is made before pulling the mixture. If the instructor isn't able to judge when they will or won't be able to make a field, they probably shouldn't be instructing.

Is the danger that the landing will be botched and a go around is impossible? I go back to my original point, that glider pilots make thousands of safe landings every year without being able to go around. I can also say that in 400+ hours of instructing, I've only needed to take the controls and perform a go around off of a bounced landing once. And that was with a student pilot who had less than 10 hours/50 landings. Every other landing could be saved.

What other problems could come up that are so unique to powered aircraft?

I'm still not saying that pulling the mixture is a good idea...I just don't think you can say "apples and oranges" and leave that as the answer without more explanation.

You don't practice (key word) autorotations in a helicopter with the engine turned off either. But that's apples and oranges too.

From my limited knowledge of helicopters, I understand that autorotations require excellent timing to perform correctly and safely. Landings in fixed wing aircraft (powered or glider) are much more forgiving. I think rotorcraft vs. fixed wing is apples and oranges. Powered fixed wing vs. glider is not.

 

[moxiepilot]

the only knowledge i can chip into this debate is related to JRH's statement above.

the inherent difference between gliders and airplanes besides the span and glide ratio is that gliders have spoilers. so when coming in for a landing they can come in high. in this situation a airplane pilot would slip to landing to make the field.

spoilers however have much more of a drastic effect than a slip and IMHO would make it easier to salvage a botched approach to landing than it would be when the airplane approach is botched

 

[NJA_Capt]

What other problems could come up….

It’s not a matter of problems or taking over controls. Although plenty of things could “come up” and force you to “need” the engine. We train simulated engine out landings. Nowhere in the PTS or syllabuses is there a square marked “actual engine out glide to landing.” Once the mixture is pulled it is no longer simulated, it is actual.

I'm still not saying that pulling the mixture is a good idea...

And I’m not saying that it isn’t a great demonstration for a student. What I am saying is that if a FED is watching from the parking lot, you will have some explaining to do.

Gliding in a glider is normal operation. Gliding with the engine off is an EMERGENCY operation. Gliding in a glider won’t get you violated. Turning off your only engine in a Cessna can earn a 91.13.




TATER: If you are still here, hows Tuesday?

 

[jrh]

And I’m not saying that it isn’t a great demonstration for a student. What I am saying is that if a FED is watching from the parking lot, you will have some explaining to do.

Gliding in a glider is normal operation. Gliding with the engine off is an EMERGENCY operation. Gliding in a glider won’t get you violated. Turning off your only engine in a Cessna can earn a 91.13.

Ok, I'm with you 100% now.

I don't think the operation of pulling the mixture in the pattern is especially dangerous. However, taking into account how the feds view that sort of activity is reason enough not to do it. I suppose that could be said for many areas of flying.

 

[N8389P]

I had a student pull the mixture out and we didnt get the engine back

 

[jrh]

Care to share the story's ending? Made it to an airport, I assume? Did your boss and/or the feds have anything to say?

 

[Bigey]

Or just let them fly the plane... Sometimes burning out a student with "busy work" after 50 mins of practicing engine failures, stalls, and other "busy work" makes it a lot less fun. If the student and you feel comfortable about the understanding and proficiency of the tasks of that day's lesson, then let the student sit and enjoy flying the airplane. Where do you want to go? Anything you want to try? Want to fly over that lake? Just have fun with it. etc... are all good things to say to students who just got a work out in the practice area. Don't forget that maneuvers and tasks we have them do are still new to them and not as easy as they are for us... It is good to let them put their guard down and enjoy flying.

You sound like my flight instructor! Except when i say i wanna see that he does the "wanna see it closer?" while pushing it hard forward in a deep descent! Oh..makes me sick thinking about it!

 

[AlexF]

You sound like my flight instructor! Except when i say i wanna see that he does the "wanna see it closer?" while pushing it hard forward in a deep descent! Oh..mkes me sick thinking about it!

I'm still waiting for an instructor that when I say "Wow, that lake looks cool", he'll reply "Wanna see it closer...upside down:rawk: " I really want to start some aerobatic training, just haven't got around to it yet, you can only procrastinate so much.

 

[Foxcow]

I usually leave the trip back from the practice area as a cool down period. I jet let them fly the airplane and look out the window. If I don't work them so hard, then like some said, I will do emergencies, hoodwork, etc. I always hated it when my instructor tried to cram as much into one flight as possible.