Time off and being on call

[Dugie8]

Is there such thing as being not on duty but not on rest?

Short answer, no.

 

[Inverted]

Being on call is NOT on duty. Being on call isn't on rest though. It's a rest issue, not a duty issue.

NO. You must be in the management department. While duty is tied to a "flight" by the technical definition, rest is being void of ANY company responsibility by the definition. You are either off, on duty, or on rest. When you are off, you still have to show 10 hours of rest. Before you are on duty, you must show 10 hours of rest. If you look at a 24 hour period, you have 14 hours of duty, 10 hours of rest. How can you show 10 hours of rest in a 24 hour period if you are in this void where you aren't on rest, and aren't on duty? How can you be responsibly to fly, and be off, or on rest? IT IS DUTY, I REPEAT, IT IS DUTY!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ppragman]

Being on call is NOT on duty. Being on call isn't on rest though. It's a rest issue, not a duty issue.

Actually...no.

Warning PDF: FAA Interpretation

You asked whether there is any merit to the following statement regarding an "on-call" requirement under part 135: "You can be both off rest and not on duty. Therefore, you are not on duty until a flight assignment is generated by paging the pilot."

Your question deals with standby status - that is, when a crewmember has not been assigned duty but is awaiting contact from the certificate holder. We have consistently interpreted that if a standby or reserve pilot has a present responsibility to work if called, then he is on duty because he is not free from restraint. Thus, the time a flight crewmember is on reserve or standby status, with an obligation to report for a flight assignment if called or paged, is not rest. See Legal Interpretation dated May 9, 2003, to James W. Johnson from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations; Legal Interpretation 1992-14 (Mar. 26,

1992).

I added the emphasis there. If you need to answer your phone and be ready to go to the airport and fly (or do anything else for that matter) - you're on duty. Period.

EDIT FOR CLARITY: It's also worth noting that except for operators with a fixed duty day (in 135.267) no one really talks about duty under 135. Under unscheduled 1 and 2 pilot rules not under a fixed duty day you are either on rest or not. You can ONLY be on rest if you are not responsible for work should the occasion arise.

 

[Inverted]

Is there such thing as being not on duty but not on rest?

Not according to FAA LOI. But scummy companies use the FAA definitions instead of the LOIs to find this "grey area" that people talk about. There is no such thing... Being off is being on rest. Being on rest is rest, being on duty is duty. It is simple to me, it is not so simple to those who want to manipulate the regs to screw over employee's for their benefit.

 

[Dugie8]

135.273 is the reg I have seen NUMEROUS times referenced as a pilot duty and rest reg.

I present you 135.261

 

[ppragman]

Not according to FAA LOI. But scummy companies use the FAA definitions instead of the LOIs to find this "grey area" that people talk about. There is no such thing... Being off is being on rest. Being on rest is rest, being on duty is duty. It is simple to me, it is not so simple to those who want to manipulate the regs to screw over employee's for their benefit.

Well, even the FAA definitions are pretty cut-and-dry:

FAR 135.263:

(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.

 

[Inverted]

Well, even the FAA definitions are pretty cut-and-dry:

FAR 135.263:

Right but if you look up the definition of duty, it has the word "flight" attached to it. XO does this garbage where you are released from duty when you land, yet you have to post flight, do all the paperwork, clean up the plane etc. Pilots have been fired because they are off duty, yet somehow not on rest, and 2 hours later got a call to fly.

 

[Dugie8]

Well, even the FAA definitions are pretty cut-and-dry:

FAR 135.263:

The rub there being "required" rest period. The only required rest period is that 10 hours (or whatever else depending on your operating rules) preceeding the planned completion of the revenue leg (blah blah 24 hours).

You can easily be on duty for longer than 14 and legally log it in your company required duty/rest log.

 

[ppragman]

Right but if you look up the definition of duty, it has the word "flight" attached to it. XO does this garbage where you are released from duty when you land, yet you have to post flight, do all the paperwork, clean up the plane etc. Pilots have been fired because they are off duty, yet somehow not on rest, and 2 hours later got a call to fly.

Source?

 

[Dugie8]

Right but if you look up the definition of duty, it has the word "flight" attached to it. XO does this garbage where you are released from duty when you land, yet you have to post flight, do all the paperwork, clean up the plane etc. Pilots have been fired because they are off duty, yet somehow not on rest, and 2 hours later got a call to fly.

And there it is. See 135.273 and 135.261

 

[z987k]

The rub there being "required" rest period. The only required rest period is that 10 hours (or whatever else depending on your operating rules) preceeding the planned completion of the revenue leg (blah blah 24 hours).

You can easily be on duty for longer than 14 and legally log it in your company required duty/rest log.

This is true. They can have you on duty for 200 hours straight. You just can't fly.

 

[SteveC]

This is true. They can have you on duty for 200 hours straight. You just can't fly.

...after the first 14.

 

[Roger Roger]

Right but if you look up the definition of duty, it has the word "flight" attached to it. XO does this garbage where you are released from duty when you land, yet you have to post flight, do all the paperwork, clean up the plane etc. Pilots have been fired because they are off duty, yet somehow not on rest, and 2 hours later got a call to fly.

Hm. There is nothing illegal about landing after 14 hours on duty, staying for 2 hours to Postflight, do paperwork, and clean. You just need 10 consecutive hours off while doing any FLYING.

 

[Dugie8]

Hm. There is nothing illegal about landing after 14 hours on duty, staying for 2 hours to Postflight, do paperwork, and clean. You just need 10 consecutive hours off while doing any FLYING.

I think I see what you're saying.

Just to be sure:

You can land and block in right at 14 and legal. The post flight stuff could take another 3 hours and that would all be duty so your duty log would show 17 hours.

Same page?

 

[deadstick]

I think I see what you're saying.

Just to be sure:

You can land and block in right at 14 and legal. The post flight stuff could take another 3 hours and that would all be duty so your duty log would show 17 hours.

Same page?

I think you two are on the same page, and, fwiw I agree.

What baffles me (imagine that -- we're talking about the FARs after all) is that there is no compensatory rest requirement for exceeding a 14 hr duty day. That only kicks in after exceeding the flight time limit.

 

[z987k]

I think I see what you're saying.

Just to be sure:

You can land and block in right at 14 and legal. The post flight stuff could take another 3 hours and that would all be duty so your duty log would show 17 hours.

Same page?

That is correct. Duty means nothing, other than it is very much not rest. It's all about having 10 hours of rest in the rolling 24 hour look back before you can fly again.

I think you two are on the same page, and, fwiw I agree.

What baffles me (imagine that -- we're talking about the FARs after all) is that there is no compensatory rest requirement for exceeding a 14 hr duty day. That only kicks in after exceeding the flight time limit.

Except for scheduled 135 ops, there's the reduced rest stuff there.

 

[deadstick]

Except for scheduled 135 ops, there's the reduced rest stuff there.

To heck with reduced rest. CAMTS wouldn't hear of it. After doing 3 trips in 15 hrs of duty (finally leaving after all the i's are dotted etc), I'd sure like an extra hour or so before dragging my butt back into the hangar. Problem is that the base is out of service until we come back. Soooo 10 hrs it is.

 

[Dugie8]

To heck with reduced rest. CAMTS wouldn't hear of it. After doing 3 trips in 15 hrs of duty (finally leaving after all the i's are dotted etc), I'd sure like an extra hour or so before dragging my butt back into the hangar. Problem is that the base is out of service until we come back. Soooo 10 hrs it is.

Fatigue call

 

[Inverted]

Hm. There is nothing illegal about landing after 14 hours on duty, staying for 2 hours to Postflight, do paperwork, and clean. You just need 10 consecutive hours off while doing any FLYING.

That is totally correct. You still have to show required rest. And the post flight is attached to the flight is it not?

 

[Inverted]

I think I see what you're saying.

Just to be sure:

You can land and block in right at 14 and legal. The post flight stuff could take another 3 hours and that would all be duty so your duty log would show 17 hours.

Same page?

Well. The regs cover going over a normal duty day, if the flight was planned to be completed within a 14 hour duty day. So if it goes 15, you get extra required rest. It is not in place so you can land at 14 hours, and spend another 3 hours on paperwork.